Quaife 5 Speed

Stephen Hill said:

Thank you for all the good intel on the Quaife 5 speed in the Rickman Metisse racebike.
It is a pretty cool bike, and around these parts (Vancouver Island in British Columbia, Canada), there is no racing, classic or otherwise.
The reason I am curious about the bike is I have been asked to look in to finding a new home for it. And while I am pretty familiar with stock Norton Commandos, Norton race bikes are all new to me.
Steve A is correct, I have found myself wondering about putting it on the road. And the lack of a kickstart presents as a problem.

The engine is basically a Commando, but is mounted in an upright manner, similar to an Atlas.
I have no idea how much I would like a bike like this on the road. The seating position is pretty radical. The gearing could be very wrong. The compression is about 10.5 to 1. And it is probably very loud. The cool factor can of course not be underestimated.

I guess this raises the obvious question: Can an ex race bike make a decent road bike???

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I think you would be likely to bounce it off the back of a car. Once you are mobile it would probably be OK. With a race bike the first few feet are always a problem. If it was built for push start races, it will have a high first gear. For clutch start it would have a low first and a higher second. Either way, things usually happen with a bit of a rush. You might have to buy a low first gear for it. The other thing is the rider position is probably better suited for high speeds, so it's suitability might depend on where you intend to use the bike. Getting an adrenalin rush on public roads is not smart.

Fast Eddie said:

Anyone looking to put a vintage race bike on the road to do ‘all day’ trips of ‘350 miles’ is either a hero or a freakin nut job…

I would imagine that Stephen has short, fun, blasts in mind. So I would doubt that such use is a relevant factor.

Even then, it’s still FAR from sensible, but is doable.

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My mate had a long stroke 500cc Manx Norton as a road bike and loved it. He once rode home from Benalla to Melbourne, 200 Km in the pouring rain. He had a choice - ride slow and drown or ride faster and drown faster but get home qucker. Near one town there is a series of corners. As he approached one of them at about 100 miles per hour in the rain, a sheep started walking across the road. Fortunately for him, it kept walking and he went behind it

Fast Eddie said:

Anyone looking to put a vintage race bike on the road to do ‘all day’ trips of ‘350 miles’ is either a hero or a freakin nut job…

I would imagine that Stephen has short, fun, blasts in mind. So I would doubt that such use is a relevant factor.

Even then, it’s still FAR from sensible, but is doable.

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I think it is relevant info as Stephen lives nearby and has to ride many of the same roads and highways that I use.
Even if he sticks to the island there are high speed roads and fairly large mileages over there.
I recently rode the Commando up island to Campbell River and was very happy to be on a bike with a comfortable riding position and isolastics.
If riding a shaker, even 50 miles can be painful.
If he sticks to Victoria, well...I avoid Victoria on any bike but will do it if necessary to get around to the lovely (when clear and sunny!) Westcoast.

Glen

If there is no racing in your location, you probably did not buy the bike locally. It sounds as though it might be the real deal. So please do not destroy it. If you can legally get to ride it on the road, take it for a blast so you can get the feel of it. Sometimes local motorcycle clubs run closed events on public roads - timed hillclimbs and sprints.

worntorn said:

I think it is relevant info as Stephen lives nearby and has to ride many of the same roads and highways that I use.
Even if he sticks to the island there are high speed roads and fairly large mileages over there.
I recently rode the Commando up island to Campbell River and was very happy to be on a bike with a comfortable riding position and isolastics.
If riding a shaker, even 50 miles can be painful.
If he sticks to Victoria, well...I avoid Victoria on any bike but will do it if necessary to get around to the lovely (when clear and sunny!) Westcoast.

Glen

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Well, like I said, it all depends on planned usage.

IMO (as someone who’s run ex race bikes on the road a few times) anyone planning to use one for 350 mile days is likely to be rather disappointed by the whole experience. Whereas anyone planning short, fun, blasts can have a ball !

In general tho, distances can be increased by use of earplugs and max dose of ibuprofen…

Thats the thing. What we have here on offer for motorcyclists is very different from the UK. We don't have the green lane riding that you have and I often wish we did.
There are no racetracks. There is some shitty city riding and fabulous mountain highway riding that requires lots of highspeed travel. 350 miles is a distance I commonly do in order to do a day trip or when travelling longer distances. Actually 350 is a fairly small daily mileage here but we find it about right for two up riding.
Lots of riders do what is called the Duffy loop as a day trip. Ive done it several times on the Vincent and once on the Commando. It is a spectacular ride on a good bike.
It is a 430 mile day from my location. There is one major city to get through as well as a couple of smaller ones. You need a bike that behaves in traffic.
About 30 riders from the UK Vincent club and 20 or so from Europe went around that loop in 2003 and they still talk about it as one of their ultimate rides ever.
For riding choices we go from the annoying to the sublime with not much in between.

A racebike isnt going to work well for anything like that or for shorter travel either.
Stephen wanted opinions and there is mine.

Many years ago I licensed an ex Portland racebike for street use.
I got around on it, but it was quite was awful, even when just used locally.
It was a very good racebike though.
I'm rembering the time that I decided it would be okay to use for a short trip that involved a ferry ride. Not pretty, but at least I was young and durable at the time!

Glen

I appreciate all the input on what I recognize is a slightly wacky topic.
Like Tom Waits said when he described a ricochet bullet penetrating the testicles of a civil war soldier before impregnating the ovaries of a nearby woman, it is a form of sex but is probably not for everyone...........

Back to the Rickman. A 750 engine, mounted upright, no isolastics, 10.5 to 1 compression. Assuming the engine was balanced correctly, how horrible would the vibration be??

Part of the problem, if there is one, is the bike has such a cool factor.
I can't post a photo, but the link to the bike below looks very similar, with the main difference being that on the bike I am dealing with the rear wheel/brake is from a Manx rather than a disk hub.

You’re right Glen, that’s different to here for sure.

I need to ride about 3-4 miles to get to the open country roads. And then there’s an endless choice of routes, half an hour , all day, or anything in between.

Despite the endless negativity on the news etc, this little island does still have some benefits I guess !

It sure does. When in the UK for a month we averaged about 75 miles a day on the old bike and found plenty of interesting things along the way. Most of our riding was on A&B roads, just wonderful stuff.
It was my wife's favourite trip on the motorcycle and she has done quite a few. I really enjoyed it as well, we need to get back there one day soon.

Fast Eddie said:

You’re right Glen, that’s different to here for sure.

I need to ride about 3-4 miles to get to the open country roads. And then there’s an endless choice of routes, half an hour , all day, or anything in between.

Despite the endless negativity on the news etc, this little island does still have some benefits I guess !

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Mostly true, until you factor in the UK's road maintenance policy, which seemingly no longer exists.

I live on the outskirts of Greater Victoria, on southern Vancouver Island. The city is hemmed in on two sides by water, and by urban sprawl on the other two side. Traditionally the good riding was in two nearby rural areas, but the sprawl has made getting to the rural areas painful. The condition of the roads is abysmal, many of the speed zones have all been dropped to ridiculous levels (3O km). Bicyclists and walkers now have an expanded sense of ownership of the roads, making it awkward to get around them. Just going for a decent ride has turned in to an all day event. One popular route is the Victoria, Port Renfrew, Cowichan, Victoria loop. Speed enforcement is low, mostly accomplished by letting the potholes get bigger!

B+Bogus said:

Mostly true, until you factor in the UK's road maintenance policy, which seemingly no longer exists.

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Indeed.

Hence the growing popularity of adventure bikes (and SUVs for that matter) !

Stephen Hill said:

I live on the outskirts of Greater Victoria, on southern Vancouver Island. The city is hemmed in on two sides by water, and by urban sprawl on the other two side. Traditionally the good riding was in two nearby rural areas, but the sprawl has made getting to the rural areas painful. The condition of the roads is abysmal, many of the speed zones have all been dropped to ridiculous levels (3O km). Bicyclists and walkers now have an expanded sense of ownership of the roads, making it awkward to get around them. Just going for a decent ride has turned in to an all day event. One popular route is the Victoria, Port Renfrew, Cowichan, Victoria loop. Speed enforcement is low, mostly accomplished by letting the potholes get bigger!

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Well that certainly seems to support Glens view, don’t sound like no race bike coun’ry t’ me !

worntorn said:

Excessive vibration on an all day ride is a big fun killer for me.
I wondered how people put up with solidly mounted old style parallel twins such as a Norton Seeley. My hunch is that no matter what BF is used there will be a lot of vibration.
It occurred that 2 stroke racebikes I have owned in the past probably vibrated quite a bit, but it never seemed to be a problem. Even now my Maico 490 doesn't seem to be a problem this way.
The reality is that it only gets ridden for about 20 or 30 minutes at a time and I am hanging on for dear life during most of that!
Just for fun I rode it for a few miles on a gravel road. Even though it has a very large rear sprocket, the bike tops out at about 90 mph.
At 50 mph in top the vibrations were quite awful. At 60 mph they were horrendous. I didn't need to try a higher speed as the vibes just get worse as the revs climb.

Looking at the Vintage road races, it appears that the typical old-timer race at Brands Hatch or a similar track is only about 10 minutes long. During that 10 minutes the riders are giving it their all and hoping not to crash, so vibration probably isn't even noticed over such a short span of busy time.
On a 350 mile road trip excessive vibration is a real problem.
I suspect that any solid racebike with a vibey old parallel twin motor is going to make a very poor all day type roadbike.

Glen

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Well,

With a high 70s balance factor, but JSM long rods and pistons, the vibration on my short stroke Rickman is way better than a lot of other twins I've ridden.

Yes, UK based classic racing is typically a 10 minute track session. However, in France and Belgium from personal experience they are up to 20 minutes. Which I have found more challenging and a greater need to pace yourself. To be honest. After a 20 minute session, the bike wants a rest too!

Stephen Hill said:

I appreciate all the input on what I recognize is a slightly wacky topic.
Like Tom Waits said when he described a ricochet bullet penetrating the testicles of a civil war soldier before impregnating the ovaries of a nearby woman, it is a form of sex but is probably not for everyone...........

Back to the Rickman. A 750 engine, mounted upright, no isolastics, 10.5 to 1 compression. Assuming the engine was balanced correctly, how horrible would the vibration be??

Part of the problem, if there is one, is the bike has such a cool factor.
I can't post a photo, but the link to the bike below looks very similar, with the main difference being that on the bike I am dealing with the rear wheel/brake is from a Manx rather than a disk hub.

Norton Rickman Metisse race bike. 1973. 750cc. Frame No- 1309R Engine No- N15CS/120224 Part of a pri

Norton Rickman Metisse race bike. 1973. 750cc. Frame No- 1309R Engine No- N15CS/120224 Part o... in 2 Day Sale of Vintage and Classic Mo (29 Sep 2023)

www.hjpugh.com

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Balanced to the correct factor is an issue here.

Because, my Rickman framed race bike has the crank balanced at 78%, and that is correct, for a race bike revved mostly between 5 and 7K. I think it's the smoothest rigidly mounted twin I have ridden, I had a race 850 in the same frame many years ago, again it was really good. But equally I have ridden a Rickman with a long stroke 750 that was taken straight out of a Commando, this was a nightmare and gave me white thumb after 10 minutes.

But, on the road you will not be riding between 5 and 7K, mostly under 5K. So you would need to rebalance to suit, at which time you might drop the compression a little.

Though I would say the biggest problem I find when riding at road speeds on a race bike, the gearing makes no sense. You want that lower first, and often much lower overall gearing.

A comment on vertical engines. My frame was delivered to me in late 1975 with plates for an Atlas installation. I confirmed with Rickman many years later that they never supplied Commando plates with a kit.

I know they did build one bike, for Tony Jeffries, with the motor installed at the Commando angle. It has been restored and is in use on track days today.

I have deliberately kept mine Atlas style. There are quite a few Rickmans out there with Commando engines leant forward. I have found that a few of them are based on frames originally intended for other, mainly Triumph, engines.

The best way to install an electric start is to use kit intended for a Commando primary, so you need to change engine plates, head steady, primary drive and exhaust and carb manifolds. The engine needs to be higher in the frame to accommodate the Commando primary case. It is quite a project.

What you are talking about makes me sad. Riding a developed race bike on a circuit is sheer joy, and it takes a lot of work to get it that way. To a casual observer all motorcycles look similar. But a race bike is very different to a road bike. I would rather put my Seeley 850 down the tip than sell it to somebody who was going to destroy it. One of my mates wants to buy it. When he buys a bike he sells it in bits. The parts on my bike are all good, but combining them to good effect has taken an immense amount of planning and work. If you look at the bike, you cannot see the modifications. The bike looks right, because it is right.
The position of the motor is extremely important, and who ever looks at the fork yokes ?
The best thing to do with a developed race bike , is find a kid with the right mindset and sell it to them cheap.

I had a look at the photo in the link. I would not modify the bike in any way. Classic racing is alost dead in Australia, but somebody would love that bike dearly. Itis similar to the Rickman Triumph Rod Tingate developed, and of which Peter Smith has built a replica.

Unfortunately, I suspect the future of many of the old race bikes is no longer:
1. race it
2. road bike
3. or part it out
Instead, it will be a static display in the garage of people who just want to look at it as a form of art.

One of the reasons old guys like myself are envied is because we kept our old bikes. We might not use them for years on end, but there will always be occasions when we bring them out. What amuses is me is the effect my Seely850 has on kids. If I ride it at a race meeting, I hear some of them saying 'old rider'. I might 82 years of age but I am actually 29 - that is when I began racing.