Quaife 5 Speed

An old friend of mine (who unfortunately died recently) has a very cool race bike: Rickman Metisse frame, Rickman front end, Manx rear brake and hub, Commando engine mounted upright, and a Quaife 5 speed. The bike has no kickstart lever, and there is no kickstart shaft projecting through the outer gearbox cover.
Is it possible to install a kickstart?
Is there an easy way to find out what ratio is in the gearbox? I understand the Quaife gearboxes came in road, race wide, and race close ratios.

don’t know, but the TT Industries box can be supplied for kickstart.

This is on the Quaife website. Looks like only first gear differs between options.

You may be able to pick which it is by counting teeth on the gear box sprocket vs clutch for each clutch rotation. In first gear.

I very much doubt your going to be able to fit a kick-start.

Could be there ...

I’m pretty sure that fitting a kickstart to a race box is not viable.

To fit a kickstart you need to have a road ratio first gear as only these have the space for the ratchet.

In danger of topic drift... Quaife historically only supplied through Mick Hemmings, and I wonder if anyone has taken over the franchise?
The last time I spoke to Quaife they admitted their website hadn't been updated in years - but that was a while ago.

It could be that the gearbox is still valuable and would take the sting out of the cost of a TTI - if 5-speed is still important.

The question seems a bit hypothetical until someone sets up as supplier of Quaife gearbox and parts post the passing of Mick Hemmings!

If there were parts to do this, where would you get them?

There were road and race versions of the Quaife 5 Speed, many with kickstarts fitted were installed in Commando production racers.

I haven't pulled one apart, so I don't know if they had a ball bearing in place of the bush in the kickstart, or a bush. The Manx 4 speed box with close ratios/high first had the ball bearing in a different machining of the inner cover to accommodate it rather than the kickstart bush, and the layshaft end was ground smaller to suit the ball bearing.

The critical parts that will/may differ will be inner cover, outer cover, layshaft, first gear pair (layshaft gear must be large enough to have ratchet inside as noted), Kickstart assembly including ratchet pawl and springs.

I suspect it could have been done with access to Mick's parts box and knowledge. I think it unlikely you can do it without.

The only way to be sure of ratios is to pull it apart and count teeth, which may be useful anyway because you may identify the first gear pair as kickstart capable!

Of course, the box you have would work fine with an electric start conversion!

Yes, as noted the TTi box can be converted, but the recommendation has been it's an expensive conversion so cheaper to sell it on and buy the box you want. It may be the same here.

B+Bogus said:

I wonder if anyone has taken over the franchise?

Click to expand...

Andover Norton took on the rest of Mick's specials so maybe at some point the 5 speed Quaife will reappear.

It depends on if you are talking about the later Quaife complete gearboxes, or the earlier Quaife gearsets that were fitted to AMC boxes. I have never seen any mention of a provision for kick starters on the complete Quaife boxes (5-speed and 6-speed), and their catalogs never mentioned that option. I've had a couple of them, one 5-speed, which I still have fitted to a MK3, and one 6-speed, since sold to a racer. I don't see how they could be converted to kick start without a lot of effort.

For the gearsets fitted to the AMC box, as kommando and SteveA have mentioned, you need the road version first gear, which has the internal ratchet teeth to accept the kick starter pawl. The 5-speed that came in my PR had that gearset fitted, and after breaking two of the first gears kick starting the bike, I swapped over to the racing first gear, which is solid, with no internal ratchet teeth. The design of the road first gear weakens it seriously, compared to the solid race first gear.

You mention that there is no kick start shaft. Is there still a hole for it in the outer cover, either welded up or with a plug?

So, in summary, if you have the complete Quaife gearbox, you're probably out of luck. If you have the AMC box with Quaife gearset, and it still has the inner and outer cover with the kickstart provisions, All you have to do is find the appropriat first gear pair. Good luck with that. They are pretty thin on the ground lately.

And, as SteveA pointed out, if you have an outer cover with no provision for the kick start shaft, you might also have one of the sets with a ball bearing in the inner cover and a smaller layshaft end. Quaife did make a 5-speed gearset in that configuration, and it can be fitted into a Commando AMC shell with a little machining. I had one with that gearset and a plug to seal the hole for the kick start shaft.

And to add to the confusion, Quaife also made a reinforced gearbox shell, as well as inner and outer covers in the Manx style, with no kick start provision, that could be used with gearsets made for the AMC box. It all adds up to a lot of configurations you might find for Quaife gearboxes for Nortons. Not to mention the final Quaife design gearbox with a drum shifter mechanism.

If you search this forum for Quaife, you will find some other posts with more details on the various Quaife configurations.

Here are some pictures that might help (or might not).

Picture of the later complete Quaife gearbox, but prior to the drum shifter unit.



This is a picture, courtesy of Kenny Cummings, of one of them with the outer cover removed. Note the different clutch release mechanism and the ball bearing for the layshaft. I don't see an easy way to convert this to kick start, but I wouldn't say it's impossible. Might be able with combination of Quaife and AMC parts, and significant machine work.



For contrast, this is a 5-speed with Commando inner and outer covers on a Quaife shell, showing the kick start hole in the outer cover plugged. The inner cover was modified to either add a bushing for the Commando style layshaft, or a ball bearing for the Manx style layshaft. I've done both, but no longer remember which one this was. And before someone asks, no, I also don't recall what the two holes around the shaft plug were for. It's been a long time since I did this stuff.



A poor quality picture of the road first gear, showing the internal ratchet teeth for the kick start pawl. The race gear was solid on this side.



The two differernt layshaft styles, Commando for bronze bushing, and Manx for ball gearing.



Ken

Could the two holes be for a ES 2 spring which I think is external. SO you had room for ES 2 spring and kicker externally??? I'll go back to my hole now!

I'll have to save this thread. Both of my Commandos have Quaife 5 speed gearsets in stock cases. I know the history of the 750's. I blew up the 4 speed power shifting it with a Barnett clutch after ridding myself of the stock composite plates the slipped easily.
Expensive lesson. I never liked the ratio gap downshifting from 3rd to 2nd, so had the Quaife gearset installed in 1975. A good choice. You just keep the engine in the mid range sweet spot and choose a gear. The 850 came with a blank s/n on the trans case and also a Quaife 5 speed gearset. Probably a result of a similar transmission failure. Belt drive primaries in both will extend the life of them.
I have read opinions here that a 5 speed is unnecessary in a road bike, but I consider that to be BS. Certainly not in the Northeast US or any other locale with hills and twisties.

As Ken has covered this comprehensively, I will only comment that the only reason I know about the ball race and different shaft in a Manx is because I built a box up from an AMC Norton case and a Manx 4 speed cluster supplied by Quaife. This was in late '75 early '76. I had the inner cover and shaft modified by someone competent, but I have no recall as to who that was.

What it produced was a very robust box when all around were blowing up Norton boxes in Seeleys, Rickmans and Commandos!

If the OPs late friend was running this box without problems on a race bike, he probably also had an outrigger bearing! And probably a higher ratio primary with a belt drive.

Using it in a Commando may require other changes. Converting the Rickman to be a road bike might be what he has in mind. Is the engine vertical a la Atlas, or tilted a la Commando. If Commando style think electric start conversion and leave the box as it is.

A Quaife gearbox is usually a race part and is more valuable for that reason. If it is modified for road use, it might be worth less. If I had a 30M Manx, a 5 speed Quaife would be in-period. The guys who race at Goodwood would probably love it.
Sell the Quaife and buy the box you want.
With a road-going Commando, I would not fit a kick-start to a Quaife. I would fit an electric start

Thank you for all the good intel on the Quaife 5 speed in the Rickman Metisse racebike.
It is a pretty cool bike, and around these parts (Vancouver Island in British Columbia, Canada), there is no racing, classic or otherwise.
The reason I am curious about the bike is I have been asked to look in to finding a new home for it. And while I am pretty familiar with stock Norton Commandos, Norton race bikes are all new to me.
Steve A is correct, I have found myself wondering about putting it on the road. And the lack of a kickstart presents as a problem.

The engine is basically a Commando, but is mounted in an upright manner, similar to an Atlas.
I have no idea how much I would like a bike like this on the road. The seating position is pretty radical. The gearing could be very wrong. The compression is about 10.5 to 1. And it is probably very loud. The cool factor can of course not be underestimated.

I guess this raises the obvious question: Can an ex race bike make a decent road bike???

Stephen Hill said:

Thank you for all the good intel on the Quaife 5 speed in the Rickman Metisse racebike.
It is a pretty cool bike, and around these parts (Vancouver Island in British Columbia, Canada), there is no racing, classic or otherwise.
The reason I am curious about the bike is I have been asked to look in to finding a new home for it. And while I am pretty familiar with stock Norton Commandos, Norton race bikes are all new to me.
Steve A is correct, I have found myself wondering about putting it on the road. And the lack of a kickstart presents as a problem.

The engine is basically a Commando, but is mounted in an upright manner, similar to an Atlas.
I have no idea how much I would like a bike like this on the road. The seating position is pretty radical. The gearing could be very wrong. The compression is about 10.5 to 1. And it is probably very loud. The cool factor can of course not be underestimated.

I guess this raises the obvious question: Can an ex race bike make a decent road bike???

Click to expand...

yes, potentially. Handlebars/riding position is one thing, depending on rider’s age/ flexibility/ type of journeys. Lowered compression ratio too, for easier starting and fuel choice/availability.

Aside from Jan's advice, very little feedback on whether a road race bike could be a decent road bike. Maybe it is so crazy nothing more need to be said? The lack of a kick start is big, but I have a couple of extra gearboxes so I could swap it out. No stand. And the high compression would probably require it to be started on the center stand. But there isn't a center or side stand. What else??

Plenty of folk have run Triumphs and Nortons on the road in race tune so it’s definitely doable.

It all depends what you want to use it for.

The suspension will likely be firm, the seat rock hard, and the riding position painful.

It won’t have any provisions for any stands, won’t have a speedo, probably won’t have a charging facility, and has no legal identity.

Generally speaking, such a motor will be more: difficult to start, vibratory, harsh, and less likely to tick over nicely, etc.

But it will also likely go like a stuck pig and be a barrel load of fun!

Yer pays yer money…

Excessive vibration on an all day ride is a big fun killer for me.
I wondered how people put up with solidly mounted old style parallel twins such as a Norton Seeley. My hunch is that no matter what BF is used there will be a lot of vibration.
It occurred that 2 stroke racebikes I have owned in the past probably vibrated quite a bit, but it never seemed to be a problem. Even now my Maico 490 doesn't seem to be a problem this way.
The reality is that it only gets ridden for about 20 or 30 minutes at a time and I am hanging on for dear life during most of that!
Just for fun I rode it for a few miles on a gravel road. Even though it has a very large rear sprocket, the bike tops out at about 90 mph.
At 50 mph in top the vibrations were quite awful. At 60 mph they were horrendous. I didn't need to try a higher speed as the vibes just get worse as the revs climb.

Looking at the Vintage road races, it appears that the typical old-timer race at Brands Hatch or a similar track is only about 10 minutes long. During that 10 minutes the riders are giving it their all and hoping not to crash, so vibration probably isn't even noticed over such a short span of busy time.
On a 350 mile road trip excessive vibration is a real problem.
I suspect that any solid racebike with a vibey old parallel twin motor is going to make a very poor all day type roadbike.

Glen

Anyone looking to put a vintage race bike on the road to do ‘all day’ trips of ‘350 miles’ is either a hero or a freakin nut job…

I would imagine that Stephen has short, fun, blasts in mind. So I would doubt that such use is a relevant factor.

Even then, it’s still FAR from sensible, but is doable.