Phil's Performance Commando

Fullauto · Jun 5, 2014

Good to see you"ve got the good sense and, dare I say it, good taste, to purchase the finest aftermarket product for a Norton Commando that you can possibly find anywhere. Now, just a bit of advice regarding your performance rebuild.

Firstly, your choice of mechanic. Personally, I wouldn't use anybody who wasn't totally familiar with the Norton product. The youngster will probably find all the weaknesses and foibles of the Commando motor. Unfortunately, not in the way you will want. I doubt that he would even be aware of how much a Norton crank flexes when revved hard. Not an issue with a Japanese bike. These are not modern machines built to rev their nuts off to achieve power gains. Because I am damned confident that will be the route he will go down to achieve your "performance upgrade". The philosophy I live by with Norton motors is to enhance the power characteristics that are already there and not simply to move the power band further up the rev scale. That is, and Jim Comstock will tell you this, to bulk up the area under the curve by enhancing the torque characteristics. If you have a revvy Commando motor with more up top but a loss in the low end and mid range, then I can assure you that you will have a less satisfying motorcycle to ride. An 850 makes maximum power at about 5800 rpm. Jim will tell you that and explain why looking beyond that is a waste of time, money and enjoyment.

By all means, put a cam in it, although really, the standard cam provides very satisfying performance, just don't go overboard. A bit of compression can't hurt, provided that, again, you don't go overboard.

If Jim is putting your head together, get him to do the performance enhancements that he has developed for the Fullauto Technologies head. A good set of carbs, or carb, and away you go. A deeply satisfying, power from idle motor that is just a dream to ride. Now, with the Fullauto Technologies head, you will notice a few things. Firstly, how beautiful it is. Secondly, the power comes on strong right off idle and continues right through the mid range. Personally, I only have a single Mikuni 34mm carb so I don't have the top end, but a change to twin carbs will make a big difference in this regard. I love the simplicity and reliability of the Mikuni, ease of tuning and the fuel economy. Thirdly, it doesn't leak oil. I find that the tappet covers are sometimes (usually) porous and will weep oil. Just don't blame the head. Did I mention how beautiful it is?

I don't really believe that a Fullauto Technologies head is the best choice first up for your Commando. There are other things that should come first. After the carb/s, the ignition (I love my TriSpark!), some sort of brake modification or replacement, uprated alternator (3 Phase), belt primary drive and headlight conversion, then the head is the icing on the cake with the cherry on top. Another philosophy of mine when I bought my Commando was "reliability up, maintenance down". These things will help to achieve this.

Hell, drop your motor in a crate and send it to Jim. That's my advice.

dennisgb · Jun 6, 2014

Very good advice. Especially reliability up, maintenance down. This has been my strategy on my build along with safety and ridability.

There has been much discussion on how far a Norton engine can be taken on the performance end...and for good reason. The knowledge base has increased significantly since the last Norton came off the production line. The base motor, even in the final iteration wasn't much different than the Combat which demonstrated the vulnerability of the design. That should tell us there is only so far we can go without custom components like billet crankcases and cranks, etc.

I like your strategy to improve within the rev limit for a street machine. If you want it to last that makes the most sense to me.

mdt-son · Jun 6, 2014

Hi Fullauto, do you consider the triplex chain primary to be a reliability concern? I guess your concern is the gearbox. Does the belt drive really relieve the gearbox significantly on a road bike? There has been a discussion at NOC-L in the past in which I participated which was inconclusive. Maybe fitting the Mk3 rear wheel or another brand of wheel providing a decent cush drive is a better solution than junking the primary chain drive. There is actually nothing wrong with the triplex chain set-up by itself, especially in the guise of the Mk3.

Matt Spencer · Jun 6, 2014

The CUSH HUB should ideally be in the Clutch or Engine Sprocket .

The Crank Rotation is not dead constant in degrees per Second or whatever , and the clutch isnt light .
so at the engine sprocket it absorbs the irregular motion before the chain . quibling but thats why they
have torsional vibration dampers on sixes & eights etc .

Then there bending of the gearbox mainshaft due to clutch overhang . Just thought Id get in as you mentioned ' Cush Hub ' .

A Non Q.D. Triumph Axle in a 75 Tri Hub is a Manx lookalike , but need a open end swing arm ends . fairly Substantial Axle .

phil yates · Jun 6, 2014

Fullauto said:
Good to see you"ve got the good sense and, dare I say it, good taste, to purchase the finest aftermarket product for a Norton Commando that you can possibly find anywhere. Now, just a bit of advice regarding your performance rebuild.

Firstly, your choice of mechanic. Personally, I wouldn't use anybody who wasn't totally familiar with the Norton product. The youngster will probably find all the weaknesses and foibles of the Commando motor. Unfortunately, not in the way you will want. I doubt that he would even be aware of how much a Norton crank flexes when revved hard. Not an issue with a Japanese bike. These are not modern machines built to rev their nuts off to achieve power gains. Because I am damned confident that will be the route he will go down to achieve your "performance upgrade". The philosophy I live by with Norton motors is to enhance the power characteristics that are already there and not simply to move the power band further up the rev scale. That is, and Jim Comstock will tell you this, to bulk up the area under the curve by enhancing the torque characteristics. If you have a revvy Commando motor with more up top but a loss in the low end and mid range, then I can assure you that you will have a less satisfying motorcycle to ride. An 850 makes maximum power at about 5800 rpm. Jim will tell you that and explain why looking beyond that is a waste of time, money and enjoyment.

By all means, put a cam in it, although really, the standard cam provides very satisfying performance, just don't go overboard. A bit of compression can't hurt, provided that, again, you don't go overboard.

If Jim is putting your head together, get him to do the performance enhancements that he has developed for the Fullauto Technologies head. A good set of carbs, or carb, and away you go. A deeply satisfying, power from idle motor that is just a dream to ride. Now, with the Fullauto Technologies head, you will notice a few things. Firstly, how beautiful it is. Secondly, the power comes on strong right off idle and continues right through the mid range. Personally, I only have a single Mikuni 34mm carb so I don't have the top end, but a change to twin carbs will make a big difference in this regard. I love the simplicity and reliability of the Mikuni, ease of tuning and the fuel economy. Thirdly, it doesn't leak oil. I find that the tappet covers are sometimes (usually) porous and will weep oil. Just don't blame the head. Did I mention how beautiful it is?

I don't really believe that a Fullauto Technologies head is the best choice first up for your Commando. There are other things that should come first. After the carb/s, the ignition (I love my TriSpark!), some sort of brake modification or replacement, uprated alternator (3 Phase), belt primary drive and headlight conversion, then the head is the icing on the cake with the cherry on top. Another philosophy of mine when I bought my Commando was "reliability up, maintenance down". These things will help to achieve this.

Hell, drop your motor in a crate and send it to Jim. That's my advice.

Thank you very much Fullauto
I really appreciate all your information and have pretty much tracked it all with Jim. Today the plan changed again in that I have the opportunity to buy a beautiful MkIII Roadster here in Oz, so plan to. And just as you recommend, I have already arranged with Jim to send the whole motor across to him for all performance work, rebuild and return. We'll just bolt her back in at this end. I'm going to make the Roadster something of a road racer sort of thing. No hope for JC against a Fullauto headed Commando. None what so ever! I'm asking Jim to hot it up as far as he dare. No expense spared. Longevity? A rebuild after every serious blast off from the lights is no problemo. I figure one JC a week for breakfast will keep the hungry monster happy. Thanks Fullauto and for your input in creating the head. There is one left at BJ's in Brisbane if anyone wants one. Be quick if anyone wants it, I might buy it myself for my next project. A hot outfit bolted to a Norton, but not a Commando of course.

Phil

phil yates · Jun 6, 2014

Fullauto said:
Good to see you"ve got the good sense and, dare I say it, good taste, to purchase the finest aftermarket product

Old Bloke · Jun 6, 2014

Thank goodness, a post with the words "Phil" in it, full of sane and practical advice. And I'm not getting at Phil, just saying, looks like sanity prevails

Well, didn't see Phils post before I finished this one..........

phil yates · Jun 6, 2014

Old Bloke said:
Thank goodness, a post with the words "Phil" in it, full of sane and practical advice. And I'm not getting at Phil, just saying, looks like sanity prevails

Well, didn't see Phils post before I finished this one..........

Old Bloke
I usually average one sane post per month,
but due to staff shortages I'll have to cut that back.
Nurses are bloody expensive!

So don't get too excited

Phil

Mark · Jun 6, 2014

phil yates said:
I usually average one sane post per month,
Phil

Well......... then that would come out to 2.
Or, one every 400 posts.

yeah, that sounds about right.

phil yates · Jun 6, 2014

Mark said:
phil yates said:

I usually average one sane post per month,
Phil

Click to expand...

Well......... then that would come out to 2.
Or, one every 400 posts.

yeah, that sounds about right.

Very impressive Mark.
Seems you can almost count.
Got something to add to Fullauto's topic?
Or just in here to cause trouble again?

Phil

Mark · Jun 6, 2014

You just can't help yourself from posting a response, can you phil?

Seriously,
what I have been able to derive from your carpetbombing of this forum is that all of this REALLY is a honeymoon phase for you.

With the amount of time devoted to posting on the internet and hanging out at the pub, you haven't even had time to break in your motorcycle.
800 miles isn't very much, especially for a person who claims to love riding his norton so much.

I think that it's cool that you have found a motorcycle that you like, having fun with it is what it's all about.
However, annoying people on the internet who have the same interests as you is a strange way to go about having fun. ( I.M.H.O. of course)

As in everything, I guess it takes all kinds,
.Those that like working on their nortons
.Those that like riding their nortons
.Those that like talking about their nortons

Let me respectfully suggest that you let your keyboard rest for a few days, get out on your bike and return when you have some reports of your rides and adventures to share. (w/pics).

Hobot · Jun 6, 2014

Matchless 1937 model X with Danish chair. Original and unrestored. Fully running and reliable. Mechanically very sound, lots of patina from a full life of work. Spring fettling required. A battery ignition makes starting easy, original KNV magneto and some rare spares included. The bike is near Copenhagen, Denmark. A short video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGRsePsixkc . Price 23.500 euros or nearest offer. Mail me at racmeister@gmail.com - cheers Rolf

phil yates · Jun 6, 2014

Fullauto
Until dispatch to Jim, your head proudly sits on my lounge room table as a double bowl ash tray.
I like smoking two ciggy's at once and chuck the butts in the bowls. But they slip through the rocker holes, burn marks all over the table!
Got any spare rocker covers I could use?
Actually, I'd love to look at it but Chris at BJ's has boxed it up so well, I sorta want to keep it that way for dispatch to Jim. I don't think I could rebox it nearly as well as Chris has, or maybe you did. It is the best Commando head in the whole world. And Chris is such a helpful guy, I am now buying nearly all parts from him, when needed. It only took two days to get here from Brisbane. What a great service. When the box arrived so quickly, I was very suspicious and checked the dispatcher's details on the box very carefully. But all was well.

Don't suppose you do Dominator heads do you?
The outfit project will need a real hot motor too.
Wondering how I will send the side car to Jim.

Phil

phil yates · Jun 6, 2014

hobot said:
Matchless 1937 model X with Danish chair. Original and unrestored. Fully running and reliable. Mechanically very sound, lots of patina from a full life of work. Spring fettling required. A battery ignition makes starting easy, original KNV magneto and some rare spares included. The bike is near Copenhagen, Denmark. A short video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGRsePsixkc . Price 23.500 euros or nearest offer. Mail me at racmeister@gmail.com - cheers Rolf

hobot
Can you ride it to the USA for me?
I'll come home on it in October. Just what I'm after. I think Matchless merged with Norton at some stage anyway.
Good enough for me.

Phil

Fullauto · Jun 8, 2014

mdt-son said:
Hi Fullauto, do you consider the triplex chain primary to be a reliability concern? I guess your concern is the gearbox. Does the belt drive really relieve the gearbox significantly on a road bike? There has been a discussion at NOC-L in the past in which I participated which was inconclusive. Maybe fitting the Mk3 rear wheel or another brand of wheel providing a decent cush drive is a better solution than junking the primary chain drive. There is actually nothing wrong with the triplex chain set-up by itself, especially in the guise of the Mk3.

Bit of a slip there. Not really a reliability issue is it? Having wrecked two belts but never having been through a triplex chain, I will qualify my statement. As I see it, the advantages of the belt drive are, in no particular order, no need for any lubricant in the chaincase so maintenance is easier. Secondly, with an appropriate clutch pushrod seal, no oil on the clutchplates. Thirdly, anytime you can pull that much weight out of your drivetrain, it must give the gearbox an easier time. Fourthly, I can, and have changed a belt out by the side of the road in the middle of nowhere when my wife brought me a few tools and the spare belt. Fifthly, I could definitely notice that on the overrun the bike was much snoother. Whether my primary chain/sprockets were worn, I don't know. But it was very noticeable.

I consider that with the belt tensioned correctly, reliability won't be an issue.

Fullauto · Jun 8, 2014

phil yates said:
Fullauto
Until dispatch to Jim, your head proudly sits on my lounge room table as a double bowl ash tray.
I like smoking two ciggy's at once and chuck the butts in the bowls. But they slip through the rocker holes, burn marks all over the table!
Got any spare rocker covers I could use?
Actually, I'd love to look at it but Chris at BJ's has boxed it up so well, I sorta want to keep it that way for dispatch to Jim. I don't think I could rebox it nearly as well as Chris has, or maybe you did. It is the best Commando head in the whole world. And Chris is such a helpful guy, I am now buying nearly all parts from him, when needed. It only took two days to get here from Brisbane. What a great service. When the box arrived so quickly, I was very suspicious and checked the dispatcher's details on the box very carefully. But all was well.

Don't suppose you do Dominator heads do you?
The outfit project will need a real hot motor too.
Wondering how I will send the side car to Jim.

Phil

Actually, smoking is not good for my heads. I would seriously cut down . They don't breathe as well. Maybe 10 a day?
In fact, I knew that head was due for despatch to you so I made sure that much time and effort was expended in the manufacture of that particular head. A team of engineers slavishly devoted a weekend to it. The pizza and piss bill was over $500.

I would say, that your particular Fullauto Technologies head, is the best and finest Norton head in the world.

Those boxes actually cost me over 20 bucks each. A necessity I'm afraid. Had a few damaged in transit to start with.

I'm sure that when you need a head for your Dominator, with a bit of notice, you can order one with certain machining operations left out of the CNC program so that it can be machined for the Dominator. Unfortunately, the head won't be any cheaper, but at least it gives you that option.

phil yates · Jun 8, 2014

Mark said:
You just can't help yourself from posting a response, can you phil?

Seriously,
what I have been able to derive from your carpetbombing of this forum is that all of this REALLY is a honeymoon phase for you.

With the amount of time devoted to posting on the internet and hanging out at the pub, you haven't even had time to break in your motorcycle.
800 miles isn't very much, especially for a person who claims to love riding his norton so much.

I think that it's cool that you have found a motorcycle that you like, having fun with it is what it's all about.
However, annoying people on the internet who have the same interests as you is a strange way to go about having fun. ( I.M.H.O. of course)

As in everything, I guess it takes all kinds,
.Those that like working on their nortons
.Those that like riding their nortons
.Those that like talking about their nortons

Let me respectfully suggest that you let your keyboard rest for a few days, get out on your bike and return when you have some reports of your rides and adventures to share. (w/pics).

Mark
You can't go writing smarts ass comments and expect no response. In fact you provoke a response.
Is this a kangaroo court where you can say what you like but I'm not allowed to defend myself?

I ride my Commando seven days a week. I've already said that, perhaps you didn't pick up on this. But my riding is local. I might be on and off my Commando several times a day on various errands. I work from home and the Commando is a welcome relief to blast off down the road and get out of the place. I frankly don't like sitting on the highway for long hours on any motorcycle. But if I had to I'd go Japanese or any modo. But I don't have to. I've got a car for that. The Commando is no where near as reliable as a Jap. A lot more fun to ride but fragile. So don't tell me how often or how to ride my bike. There are folk who never or rarely ride their Commando, I'm not one of them. Tell them to get out and ride more often, not me.

Phil

olChris · Jun 8, 2014

hobot said:
Matchless 1937 model X with Danish chair. Original and unrestored. Fully running and reliable. Mechanically very sound, lots of patina from a full life of work. Spring fettling required. A battery ignition makes starting easy, original KNV magneto and some rare spares included. The bike is near Copenhagen, Denmark. A short video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGRsePsixkc . Price 23.500 euros or nearest offer. Mail me at racmeister@gmail.com - cheers Rolf

That is just an beautiful site and sound...........

phil yates · Jun 8, 2014

Fullauto said:
phil yates said:

Fullauto
Until dispatch to Jim, your head proudly sits on my lounge room table as a double bowl ash tray.
I like smoking two ciggy's at once and chuck the butts in the bowls. But they slip through the rocker holes, burn marks all over the table!
Got any spare rocker covers I could use?
Actually, I'd love to look at it but Chris at BJ's has boxed it up so well, I sorta want to keep it that way for dispatch to Jim. I don't think I could rebox it nearly as well as Chris has, or maybe you did. It is the best Commando head in the whole world. And Chris is such a helpful guy, I am now buying nearly all parts from him, when needed. It only took two days to get here from Brisbane. What a great service. When the box arrived so quickly, I was very suspicious and checked the dispatcher's details on the box very carefully. But all was well.

Don't suppose you do Dominator heads do you?
The outfit project will need a real hot motor too.
Wondering how I will send the side car to Jim.

Phil

Click to expand...

Actually, smoking is not good for my heads. I would seriously cut down . They don't breathe as well. Maybe 10 a day?
In fact, I knew that head was due for despatch to you so I made sure that much time and effort was expended in the manufacture of that particular head. A team of engineers slavishly devoted a weekend to it. The pizza and piss bill was over $500.

I would say, that your particular Fullauto Technologies head, is the best and finest Norton head in the world.

Those boxes actually cost me over 20 bucks each. A necessity I'm afraid. Had a few damaged in transit to start with.

I'm sure that when you need a head for your Dominator, with a bit of notice, you can order one with certain machining operations left out of the CNC program so that it can be machined for the Dominator. Unfortunately, the head won't be any cheaper, but at least it gives you that option.

Thanks Fullauto.
Smoking not good for your heads?
How many heads have you got? I thought you were in Perth, not Tasmania!
Jenny says the same. She is very blunt about it. Give up the fags or no riding the Norton and no going to the pub.
The first one really hurt, the second….well it really hurt too.
So it's bye bye fags and bye bye ash tray, you're going to Colorado.
Price doesn't concern me Fullauto. I appreciate how much work must go into its production. I wanted the best and I bought the best.
I'm going to x-ray the box for a peekaboo. Then send it to Jim.
I'll ask Jim to send it back in the same box, then return the box to you free of charge.
The very least I can do for the privilege of owning the best Commando head in the world.
I'll be buying a second one. Then another for the next Dominator outfit.

Phil
ps I'll pay the pizza and piss bills. Send me an invoice.

olChris · Jun 8, 2014

phil yates said:
Fullauto said:

[quote="phil yates"
Phil

Click to expand...

.

Thanks Fullauto.
Smoking not good for your heads?
How many heads have you got? I thought you were in Perth, not Tasmania!
Jenny says the same. She is very blunt about it. Give up the fags or no riding the Norton and no going to the pub.
The first one really hurt, the second….well it really hurt too.
So it's bye bye fags and bye bye ash tray, you're going to Colorado.
Price doesn't concern me Fullauto. I appreciate how much work must go into its production. I wanted the best and I bought the best.
I'm going to x-ray the box for a peekaboo. Then send it to Jim.
I'll ask Jim to send it back in the same box, then return the box to you free of charge.
The very least I can do for the privilege of owning the best Commando head in the world.
I'll be buying a second one. Then another for the next Dominator outfit.

Phil
ps I'll pay the pizza and piss bills. Send me an invoice.[/quote]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Phil's Performance Commando

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