Pazon Ignition

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Has anyone tried the Pazon Ignition system, either analogue or digital. It seems like it might address some of the weaknesses sometimes experienced with the Boyer eg. poor start when battery voltage down, backfire on start up (battery again), dynamic ignition timing scatter, etc. Cheers :?:
 
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I am curious as well. I am about to go with the Sparx system but if the Pazon is better I'll go that route instead.
 
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I've been thinking about a Pazon to replace my Boyer digital which gives even more kickback than a low voltage analogue and that's with full batt voltage. This is what they said when asked what improvements there might be over the BD.

"Our Sure-Fire (and Smart-Fire) Ignition Systems do not advance up as quickly at low rpm (i.e. at cranking speeds, whether kick or electric starting). The result is much less chance of kickback. Full advance is reached at around 4000 rpm and the working range (from tick-over to full advance) is 20° crankshaft".

Their advance curve supports this but I thought I'd ask. Strange they went the opposite way from Boyer since it's rumoured (well known) that the Pazon designer drew up the Boyer digital curve! Maybe they realised they got it wrong.
 
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If you think the Boyer is causing kick back, the battery is good, there isn't a volt drop in the supply to the black/red/blue box, and you've tried a box swap. Believe me your ignition is too advanced for your motor. I had two years of hell, oh boy! the pain I went through.
Turned out to be a new strobe light that was guaranteed accurate up to 8000rpm. Well it wasn't, the flash was slow like most other strobes. I've since had it replaced and the new one calibrated to 8k but never had the confidence to use it.
Does your motor have piston slap, pink or rattle? if so retard it in small increments until it stops. Or just try retarding it until it stops kicking back. It cost nothing to try. You might find the tickover will change, that's expected. You should find the motor runs smoother and rev freer if you were too advanced.
You can check if your ignition is OK by plug colour, and heat marks on the plug electrodes. There's a lot of nice sites on plug reading to set ignition timing well worth a trawl.
Sorry for getting on the soapbox the memory and leg still hurt.
 
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I have to admit my Snap-on strobe is long in the tooth and may be giving false readings. I seem to get almost instantaneous advance from tickover and get to (a jumpy) 28 degrees by 2000rpm. It gets to 31 by about 3500 but the scatter is poor, sometimes seeming to actually retard in big eratic jumps. I power the strobe from an independant battery to avoid voltage surges but, as I said before, it is an old strobe.
The engine runs surprisingly well and shows no sign of pinking whatsoever, even when provoked.
I do not have another 850 to try as a comparison but judging from the way it blats outs of corners, responds cleanly to low rev throttle and pulls strongly to 5500rpm (my self imposed safety limit) it is basically ok. I was simply looking to get the advance curve just right, which at present it appears not to be.
I will try to get a newer strobe, in case the apparent scatter and retardation is due to the gun.
 
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Boyers should not get to fully advanced until 5K, if you are at 31 by 3.5k you are over advanced or your boyer has a advance curve out of spec.
 
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One thing to bear in mind with timing fluctuations is the timing chain tension, if this is even a little bit loose it can account for quite large fluctuations in timing from side to side as well as at different revs and running conditions. This issue was apparently one of the things that exacerbated the problems with the original Combat motors. The timing chain needs fairly frequent adjustment (1 to 2 thousand mile intervals if I remember correctly) and is not so easy to adjust as to do it by the book you are supposed to either have a special tool that supports the shaft of the intermediate gear or else a cut-down timing cover which has the same function. I have fitted an automatic chain-tensioner to mine and recommend this to anyone who doesn't want the constant hassle and replacing gaskets and oil pump o-rings with monotonous regularity.
 
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Completely agree with everything said but I never even considered a timing light could be "late". That's an interesting one. It's long been reported that Boyer curves vary a lot especially at the bottom end up to 1500/2000 rpm. The digital also has a few degrees higher initial advance which is why I had to back off my timing to avoid kickback. (well under 1000rpm, which is why it doesn't show on most curves) Strangely the Combat headed engines I run the last 8 yrs have never pinked or detonated (well one did detonate but that was a rod bolt!)on regular unleaded.
If you look at the Pazon curve you'll see it is depicted much smoother than any Boyer and has higher advance from 1000 rpm up. These are my plots taken from various docs and my own bike. Just wondering what the extra Pazon advance does opening the throttle at say 2500 rpm where it has an extra 3-5 degrees.

ENGINE RPM 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500
CENTRIFUGAL 11.5 16 20 24 28 28 28 28 28 28 28 28
Analogue 17/08/04 12 15 19 22 24 26 28 29.5 31 31.5 31.5 31.5
Digital Set 14/01/05 12 15 19 23 28 29 30 31 31 31 31 31
PAZON Surefire 12 19 24 27.5 29 30.5 31 31 31 31 31 31
PAZON Smartfire 11 17 21 23.5 26 28.5 31 31 31 31 31 31
 
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If your timing chain is tight, I wonder if you've got a problem with the stator to rota over lap? Not enough over lap (I think the minimum is 2mm) might upset the "Hall effect" which controls the advance. I never ever saw any timing scatter when timing my commando, the bloody thing just kicked back every third kick.
 
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I have checked my timing chain twice recently (whilst lapping in the oil pump) and it seems to be just right. I set the Boyer initially by lining up the rotor screw head visible through the rearmost hole in the Boyer stator plate. The engine fires up at this setting and is virtually spot on with the stobe at 3500/4000 rpm @ 31btdc. It will not exceed 31 even @ 5500rpm. But the strobed mark scatters and jumps a lot, suggesting a Boyer related problem, strobe gun errors excepted.
What did you mean (Cash) by stator to rotor overlap? I assume that if I am aligned by sight through the stator hole and verified @ max advance = 31 degrees then I must have the relationship between stator and rotor about right.
Very interesting data (Keith1069) about the advance curves. It seems that the origainal points system, the digital and both Pazon units get to max advance by 3000 and 4000rpm respectively, the analogue needing 5000 to peak. The advance ramp during the first 2500 revs is certainly quicker on the Pazon and it also graphs smoother. I have found on car engines that all centrifugal advance should be fully in by 3500/4000 rpm for an engine designed to reach 6000.
I tried my strobe on the car (V6 3 litre modified Ford Cologne engined Reliant Scimitar) and it flashed really smooth and steady, so I must do some more checking with the Norton. All wiring and connections to Boyer would be a good start but I am viewing Pazon more favourably.
 
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Scim,

I think that you're right on this. It is the Boyer's susceptibility to all sorts of odd problems that deny logical analysis which is the difficulty here. Battery and wiring have to be absolutely spot on and the merest hint of a dry connection will make it misbehave but never twice in the same manner.

I am now back using my original Boyer (25 years old and with the Norwood address on) It has never given any problems apart from hardening of the cables which are now a bit short. Since then, I have bought two new ones as preventative maintenance with the idea of carrying the old one as a spare.

Both the newer ones have been subject to problems and both times Boyer have said "nothing wrong" However, I have seen the strobe advance to 3500 and then retard for a few hundred rpm before then proceeding to advance again. The scattering strobe is also something I'm familiar with.

I have an old "finned box" RITA on my 750 and have never seen these problems.

A Pazon is on my Christmas list unless I find a NOS RITA soon
 
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I'm still considering the Pazon Surefire despite reservations about the curve. The other issue is comparison between the Sure and Smartfire units, they are totally different between 1000 and 3500 with the Smartfire more closely following the points and Boyer Digital curves. Why? I have little idea and I didn't ask them but will do so unless someone else gets there first.
On the scatter characteristic? I don't see that but one thing worth checking is the actual position of the timing plate. Mine is bang on but there are one or two threads here from the USA stating it is often/always out of correct position.
 
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Sorry scim77, what I meant was, how for the pins on the rear of the stator protrude inside ie overlap the magnets on the rota. Not enough and the wave produced might not be stable and its the size of the wave that controls the advance.
 
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Thanks Cash. I understand now and will try to check mine using plasticine or similar, I suppose, if I can't wangle a feeler in there.
 
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I've got a measurement somewhere, if you fail let me know and I'll dig it out.
 
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Sparx ignition

Dont get the sparx, they will fail on nortons. Clearance issues.I went through two of them. Posts got loose afer a couple of rides.Tried everything to fix the problem, Went to a boyer have not had a problem since. My supplier told me sparx was aware of the problem.
Its a shame because its a real nice set up with the finned aluminum box that can mount next to the battery.
 
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