Only Boeing?

My friend who is an engineer just retired from boeing and he was a supervisor in assembly. He often referred to the union workers as "a bunch of idiots". There's no special "card" or "club" or "union" that changes you from and idiot into a smart, conscientious, worker. Before I went into business for myself, I worked in the union. There were both incredibly skilled guys and idiots. In private business, it was the same...

IMO, you have to design a good mechanism in order for any worker to build a good mechanism. It's rare when a poorly designed thing can be corrected during the build itself by the workers, but I've seen that happen too. In boeing's case, it seems hard to believe that the workers could do anything to save a poor design, given the complexity. The bean counters ruin great innovation by insisting that "cheaper and good enough" is a better result than "excellent and more expensive".
 
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in most corporations it is the bean counters that rule on the final design. GM is fine example of that with all junk they have pushed on the public.

o0norton0o said:
The bean counters ruin great innovation by insisting that "cheaper and good enough" is a better result than "excellent and more expensive".
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o0norton0o said:
My friend who is an engineer just retired from boeing and he was a supervisor in assembly. He often referred to the union workers as "a bunch of idiots". There's no special "card" or "club" or "union" that changes you from and idiot into a smart, conscientious, worker. Before I went into business for myself, I worked in the union. There were both incredibly skilled guys and idiots. In private business, it was the same...

IMO, you have to design a good mechanism in order for any worker to build a good mechanism. It's rare when a poorly designed thing can be corrected during the build itself by the workers, but I've seen that happen too. In boeing's case, it seems hard to believe that the workers could do anything to save a poor design, given the complexity. The bean counters ruin great innovation by insisting that "cheaper and good enough" is a better result than "excellent and more expensive".
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The real idiots are the people in charge who think you can build complex things such as airliners cheaply and make more profit than the next guy who doesn't cheap out so much. I know many people who work for Boeing (formerly McDonnell/Douglas, builders of space capsules) and the company would like nothing better than to get rid of the unions so they could dictate terms. The people I know learned their skills in the military and in top engineering schools and belong to a Union (as pilots and flight attendants not to mention doctors and nurses) because dealing with a large corporation as an individual is a hopeless exercise in frustration. If that makes them idiots (according to your friend), I'd hate to see who's building planes in South Carolina.

As usual, you've misinterpreted my statement to rattle on about your philosophy.
 
Danno said:
As usual, you've misinterpreted my statement to rattle on about your philosophy.
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No, as usual your reading comprehension is poor. I worked with incredibly talented people in the union, and a bunch of not so talented people too. My private business experience was exactly the same. I didn't put down the unions at all. I just said that they reflect the same skilled and less skilled workers as the non union workers did. My friend at boeing was just an example relevant to the conversation about boeing. You brought up the union philosophy dogma.

You seem to take every comment as a challenge to your own philosophy. Much like our last conversation you're trying to make a broad sweeping generalization about union labor and evil management, which I don't think is true, but it's the basis of your philosophy so you bring it out for every thread where someone has a different opinion than you.

I agree with some of what you said, if you read what I wrote, but because I disagree with your union man dogma, you get all bent out of shape and tell me that I'm the one philosophizing, when in fact it's you...
 
Actually, you said your "friend" at Boeing said the Union people were idiots, implying you tend to agree. And you're talking to the wrong person about all your so-called experience with unions. I am a 3rd-generation Union member and all my grandchildren are covered by a union-negotiated healthcare plan. You are the one making broad sweeping generalizations based or you and your friend's
opinions. Just how were they "idiots"? Second-hand info is a lot more dogmatic than my 50 years of experience with thousands of union members, hundreds of different Unions and dozens of employers. It's not about "management" it's about power. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Witness what goes on in D.C. If it weren't for Unions, you and every other working person in
this country would be a virtual slave, just like the illegals Trump had working at
his golf resorts. All the perks you enjoy at work were either invented by a union or by a smart manager wanting to keep unions out by making your deal better than if you signed a card.


Your rudimentary knowledge of unions, their purpose and their accomplishments tells you that's all there is- just like the tv image of a union member; "I'm in the
Union and I don't have to do anything and you can't get rid of me" I resent your characterization of my experience and knowledge as "dogma" Your second-hand
stories and beliefs are much closer to actual dogma because you posted something you have scant actual experience of. And you can quote me on that.
 
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Danno said:
"... and you can't get rid of me"
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Actually, that is a HUGE problem with government officials, especially.

I believe any congressperson who is somehow miraculously forced from office for whatever malfeasance or criminal behavior should IMMEDIATELY forfeit the absurd self-awarded golden parachutes that they enjoy after serving ONE 2-YEAR TERM!!!

Off-topic, but I couldn't help myself...
 
No, that's not what I was saying,... Of course unions are good for making sure workers have a fair wage and good benefits and retirement, etc. I'm not disputing that at all. I'm saying the same thing I said to JimC in the other thread about neatness....

Just because labor is union (or someone works neatly) doesn't mean there's automatically a higher quality of work... It doesn't mean the opposite either. If the boeing crashes are fairly investigated, I would go with whatever cause the investigators find as the reason for the crashes, and I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that, "They crashed because of non-union labor", which is what I think you implied.

Skill set isn't dependent on neatness or being in a union... Large shops expose new workers to more highly skilled people, which is the key to becoming a more skilled worker. Larger shops tend to attract unionization. The three shops I worked in before I went out on my own were all union shops, and like I said, they had highly skilled, and not so highly skilled workers. None of these guys who taught me incredible skills would be any less skilled without the union, just less compensated for their skill,.... as you said...
 
Sorry if I over-reacted, but there are a lot of different situations out there, union-wise. The trade unions have always trained their members and made the construction industry as efficient as it is today. In areas where unions have been suppressed, individual employers have had to do their own training and to what standard? I was watching tv in Georgia on a vacation and the construction companies were so desperate for bodies, they were taking people off the street to man their work. Around here, the employers can contact the trades union and get a person who is trained to a DOL standard. Apprentices are schooled AND trained on the job. In the modern world, everyone wants a specialist, but then businessmen want to marginalize them by telling them they're just drywallers or floorlayers or whatever, while apprenticeship offers introduction to many phases of the trade and the person can choose their own path. I would also add (and you can tell your wives, daughters and girlfriends) that trade unions were the first place to not only offer but guarantee equal pay for equal work. Not a large number of females even want to enter the trades, but for the ones that do, unions are the only place to go to be trained and paid just like the men.

Unions can and do promote a standard; not only a standard of pay, but a standard of productivity, quality and safety. At that point, what people are paid becomes secondary to what the job costs and and how quickly is is completed. I live in an area (thankfully) where the Union trades enjoy a 70-90% market share, yet construction costs are no more than many areas where unions have no presence whatsoever. This doesn't happen due to "I'm in the union, I don't have to do anything and you can't get rid of me" It happens from skill, safety, training and productivity.

Boeing made a conscious decision to set up shop in an anti-union State and produce the latest in airliners there rather than in their established facility. Now they're falling out of the sky and killing hundreds, so they are grounded until some "fix" is concocted. Also, the big deal set up by the former governor to sell planes to her native land has fallen through and billions are going down the tube. I can't help but think all these circumstances are related. Follow the money, but not down the drain.
 
grandpaul said:
Actually, that is a HUGE problem with government officials, especially.

I believe any congressperson who is somehow miraculously forced from office for whatever malfeasance or criminal behavior should IMMEDIATELY forfeit the absurd self-awarded golden parachutes that they enjoy after serving ONE 2-YEAR TERM!!!

Off-topic, but I couldn't help myself...
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Term limits sound good, but who would want to be fired from their job just because they had been working at the same place for a certain number of years? Job security should be there for anyone who performs their job well and for nobody who steals their wages by screwing up or screwing off. In politics, it's more difficult every day just to get good people to run for office, which is how so many crooks and thieves get in there in the first place. What's to say if you get rid of a politician after two years (or whatever) the replacement will be any better? We get the opportunity to can them each election already, but we don't always do what's best. I don't think term limits address the actual problem-they're only a band-aid for some of the symptoms.

I do agree in principle with your last statement, but laws governing retirement savings, pensions, 401Ks etc. are pretty specific and would need to be modified greatly to allow taking someone's money. And the people it would affect the most are those who make the laws. Any politician who says he believes in term limits should just quit after a few years and their "golden parachutes" should be based on years of service, just like the rest of us. Doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon.
 
Danno said:
Term limits sound good, but who would want to be fired from their job just because they had been working at the same place for a certain number of years? Job security should be there for anyone who performs their job well and for nobody who steals their wages by screwing up or screwing off. In politics, it's more difficult every day just to get good people to run for office, which is how so many crooks and thieves get in there in the first place. What's to say if you get rid of a politician after two years (or whatever) the replacement will be any better? We get the opportunity to can them each election already, but we don't always do what's best. I don't think term limits address the actual problem-they're only a band-aid for some of the symptoms.
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Re;"In politics, it is more difficult every day just to get good people to run for office, which is how so many crooks and thieves get in there in the first place. What's to say if you get rid of a politician after two years (or whatever) the replacement will be any better?"
I can answer that in just two words- Donald Trump!
 
Danno said:
Sorry if I over-reacted, but there are a lot of different situations out there, union-wise. The trade unions have always trained their members and made the construction industry as efficient as it is today. In areas where unions have been suppressed, individual employers have had to do their own training and to what standard? I was watching tv in Georgia on a vacation and the construction companies were so desperate for bodies, they were taking people off the street to man their work. Around here, the employers can contact the trades union and get a person who is trained to a DOL standard. Apprentices are schooled AND trained on the job. In the modern world, everyone wants a specialist, but then businessmen want to marginalize them by telling them they're just drywallers or floorlayers or whatever, while apprenticeship offers introduction to many phases of the trade and the person can choose their own path. I would also add (and you can tell your wives, daughters and girlfriends) that trade unions were the first place to not only offer but guarantee equal pay for equal work. Not a large number of females even want to enter the trades, but for the ones that do, unions are the only place to go to be trained and paid just like the men.

Unions can and do promote a standard; not only a standard of pay, but a standard of productivity, quality and safety. At that point, what people are paid becomes secondary to what the job costs and and how quickly is is completed. I live in an area (thankfully) where the Union trades enjoy a 70-90% market share, yet construction costs are no more than many areas where unions have no presence whatsoever. This doesn't happen due to "I'm in the union, I don't have to do anything and you can't get rid of me" It happens from skill, safety, training and productivity.

Boeing made a conscious decision to set up shop in an anti-union State and produce the latest in airliners there rather than in their established facility. Now they're falling out of the sky and killing hundreds, so they are grounded until some "fix" is concocted. Also, the big deal set up by the former governor to sell planes to her native land has fallen through and billions are going down the tube. I can't help but think all these circumstances are related. Follow the money, but not down the drain.
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Well said...
 
Bernhard said:
As long as there is NO cost cutting as with the MAX! the engineers tried to get around having to submit the up graded 737Max ( from the successful 737) by bye-passing registering it as a new plane-which it was and the FAA would have failed it- with a new improved but bigger engine that completely fecked up what was otherwise a good plane. All in order to save on costs from the FAA. IMHO the buck stops firmly with Boeing they knew they had a problem - this has cost two 737 Max plane crashes and 438 lives and still they won't admit it was their fault- see the repeat of the Boeings deadly plane Panorama BBC 2 program tonight at 1.30pm with BSL.
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very similar to the eurocopter ec 225
lots of people killed in the oil industry
and they still would not admit they had
a bad design
 
Danno said:
Term limits sound good, but who would want to be fired from their job just because they had been working at the same place for a certain number of years?
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Most jobs don't put you in a position to offer more free stuff to people if they will re-hire you every two years.

The "free" stuff, of course, is NOT 'free', it's paid for with other people's money, even if the other people highly disapprove of the free stuff and the way it's handed out.

THAT is the biggest problem.
 
grandpaul said:
I really think planes bigger than 747s usher in the Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility. More new 747s would work just fine, let the competition have their (smaller) slice of the pie and get on with it.
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no more new 747s are being made for passenger service, the airbus a380 is done
 
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