One of "Those" ebay ads

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I have a 74 and it matches the bike with the exception of the mods eg airfilter, I was thinking the odd numbering was replacement crankcases being stamped but the gearbox having the same number rules that out. The breather coming out of the timing chamber identifies them as 850 cases, so unlikely to be a modified 750 set of cases.
 
I have a 1973 750 Roadster with a 235--- engine number. I am fairly certain the factory did not stop at 230935 for the 750 range as previously stated.
 
dorteerts said:
I have a 1973 750 Roadster with a 235--- engine number. I am fairly certain the factory did not stop at 230935 for the 750 range as previously stated.
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But does it have an 850 style cylinder? :?
 
dorteerts said:
I have a 1973 750 Roadster with a 235--- engine number. I am fairly certain the factory did not stop at 230935 for the 750 range as previously stated.
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A lot of what is quoted on production numbers comes from Roy Bacon's books. He has a lot of erroneous information due to uncertainty of his source, the factory records at the NOC England. Norton didn't follow a number/time line with the objective of making it easy for restorers in the future to make absolute statements. From what the NOC sees, the later the production time line the less detail in the records. Makes sense as the house of cards was crumbling.
 
illf8ed said:
A lot of what is quoted on production numbers comes from Roy Bacon's books. He has a lot of erroneous information due to uncertainty of his source, the factory records at the NOC England.
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No doubt the 'official' production information-as supplied to him by the NOC which he published in his books was given in good faith, even though it probably does contain some errors, but that's hardly Roy Bacon's fault, and no other 'Norton' author I am aware of, has so far has been able to give a more accurate account of the production records.
 
My MKII has a build date of 8/74 and I bought it new from a dealer in May of '75 as a '75 model. That's what it says on my title and registration and I've never had reason to change it. If I were to put my bike on eBay I would list it as a '75 and damm anyone who said otherwise. Of course being the original owner and still having the original bill of sale would be good evidence of my claim.

I would, however, like to see the frame tag on this one... The engine number certainly seems odd.
 
This is not Nortons but on a couple of other bike brands I have seen preproduction prototypes dropped into an otherwise standard frame to be run tested. This puts the number out of sequence as you have a frame that might be the last of a model with an engine that is out of sequence.
Honda did that with preproduction Goldwings I understand and I have another brand in my garage that is much the same.
If Frank spots this he could have an opinion.
There are lots of other possibilities such as repair with new case and one of the bikes being made from the leftover bits.
 
I've looked through the original Norton ledgers which are now in the hands of the Vintage Motorcycle Club. At the time Roy Bacon was writing they were located at the Science Museum and he would have had access. The NOC has microfilm copies.

The early 1920s and 1930s ledgers are magnificent with numbered components and testers name etc but there was progressively less detail. There was a drop in quality after the move to Plumstead but there were at least records up until the move from Andover to Wolverhampton, after that there are just odd lists of numbers with little discernable sequence.

I think in all honesty that if there ever were proper records, they are now lost and what remain are probably based on UK warranty return cards rather than original dispatch records. I saw little relating to overseas sales other than personal exports.

I looked for my 1972 750 and 1975 Mk111 and found neither of them, although there were machines not far away. Both of these were sold new in the UK and have traceable history back to first registration.

The majority of the Norton record books were rescued by good old John Hudson from a rubbish skip, I believe at Andover and preserved by him until they could be properly stored again. It may be that the official records after this date were not so fortunate.

I don't think that it is coincidence that there appears to have been a small batch of red / white / blue Mk2A Roadsters delivered to the US with 235xxx engine numbers. This colour scheme was only ever catalogued and advertised on Mk111 production. I wonder if, having already started numbering Mk111s at 325001, they made a last batch of earlier models and sold them at a discount to the US importer and simply went back and used a batch of unissued numbers. I'd be interested to know if dorteert's 750 has 850 type cases with sump filter.

I'm determined to have another search through the records for 235xxx numbers but I fear that if they were made in 1974 and were for export only, there may be nothing surviving.
 
79x100 said:
I don't think that it is coincidence that there appears to have been a small batch of red / white / blue Mk2A Roadsters delivered to the US with 235xxx engine numbers. This colour scheme was only ever catalogued and advertised on Mk111 production.
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I always assumed that there were MKIIa's with that color scheme. Especially since the JPN Replicas came in both 74 and 75, yes?
 
As far as I'm aware, the JPN replicas were all 74 model year Mk2As although there was something cobbled together for the Mk111 brochure.

There certainly were red white blue Mk2A Roadsters. I've seen a couple in the UK and they both had Mk111 frames (with the extended shock top mounting gusset) so they must have been late ones.

I can find no trace in catalogues, adverts or road tests of this colour scheme being listed for the 2A.

The 1974 Mk2 / 2A brochures did show a white Roadster with the caption "New first time Blue stripe finish" but it had two blue lines (no red). I've never seen a tank in this scheme (was it produced ?) The Mk2 and 2A were both shown in the various catalogue editions but they may just have swapped the tank over.

I'd like to learn more but the fact that Commandos have been cherished for so long means that original paint work is few and far between as the proud owners have had them all repainted.
 
79x100 said:
As far as I'm aware, the JPN replicas were all 74 model year Mk2As although there was something cobbled together for the Mk111 brochure.
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The MkIIA JPN was included in both the '75 Norton brochure and the NVT brochure, presumably because they were either selling off old '74 stock, or hadn't decided to drop the JPN from the range before the brochures were produced?
As you know, it is often difficult to identify a particular Commando as being from a certain production 'year' because the factory didn't appear to release upgraded models at regular yearly intervals.
 
L.A.B. said:
79x100 said:
As far as I'm aware, the JPN replicas were all 74 model year Mk2As although there was something cobbled together for the Mk111 brochure.
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The MkIIA JPN was included in both the '75 Norton brochure and the NVT brochure, presumably because they were either selling off old '74 stock, or hadn't decided to drop the JPN from the range before the brochures were produced?
As you know, it is often difficult to identify a particular Commando as being from a certain production 'year' because the factory didn't appear to release upgraded models at regular yearly intervals.
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The JPN on the large NVT 'powerchoice' brochure clearly has a Mk111 chaincase and reversed left-hand gear change. I seem to remember reading somewhere that they hadn't worked out what to do with a rear-set master cylinder. The US 'Ultimate Ride' brochure has an action photo taken from above. It looks like a Mk2 and certainly has a right hand front disc.

There are plenty of oddities in the brochures, for example the electric start engined isolastic illustration with a drum-brake swing arm.
 
Although not in the motorcycle industry, I'm well aware of what goes in a catalog and what comes out of the factory can be two different things. :mrgreen:
 
79x100 said:
The JPN on the large NVT 'powerchoice' brochure clearly has a Mk111 chaincase and reversed left-hand gear change. I seem to remember reading somewhere that they hadn't worked out what to do with a rear-set master cylinder.
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Yes, I have to admit I only looked at the Powerchoice brochure on the ClassicBike.biz website, which doesn't really show the JPN chaincase in any detail, but the disc is clearly on the left side. http://www.classicbike.biz/Norton/Broch ... riumph.pdf

I did notice that the JPN is the only Commando model of the four which isn't called a 'Mk 3'.
 
My 1973 750 has matching engine, frame and gearbox numbers. All are 235---.
I have attached a couple of photos which should show the engine and number. Second one is when bike was unloaded of truck after coming all the way from one side of Oz to the other. The first is more recent.


One of "Those" ebay ads
 
After another look at the factory records, there is good news and bad news. Prior to 1972, the books are pretty complete including overseas and they include details of colour and trim type.

The 200000 book has many gaps.

After that, there are only carbon copies of the application forms for vehicle licences in the UK (and even they have gaps). There are also Mk111 850 'stock cards' whatever that might be. Again not complete, it they appear to show bikes still in stock when the factory stopped producing.

I could find no trace of any numbers in the 235xxx range. I really wonder if they were locally assembled by the US Importer.
 
I know my bike originally sat around in a shed for many years in Western Australia but there is no way of knowing whether it was an original Aussie delivery or a later import from the states. I guess the serial number issue will remain a mystery. Perhaps that is better than knowing it's origins?
 
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