Oil cooler
- Thread starter pierodn
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Most riders seem to agree (I bet that gets some argument) that an oil cooler is not needed in all bit the very hottest ofplace around the world and could do more harm than good by npt allowing the oil to get hot enough to remove any water contamination. But if you choose to fit one it should like the filter be coupled into the return pipe from the engine and if a filter is fitted (why would you not have one?? ) ideally after the filter.
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The few that I have seen have been routed from the return oil pipe on the engine junction block (part No. 064134) to the cooler and then to the filter which then returns to the oil tank.
I assume that this route, engine return to oil cooler to oil filter is chosen to keep the pipe work to a minimum.
I assume that this route, engine return to oil cooler to oil filter is chosen to keep the pipe work to a minimum.
Fast Eddie
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A simple way is to put the cooler in the cylinder head feed, it doesn't cool all the oil granted, but at least it cools it before going to the head, which being the hottest part of the bike, does make sense.
This is at least what I intend to do, but first, I need to get a round tuit...
This is at least what I intend to do, but first, I need to get a round tuit...
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Piero,
can you tell us why you feel you need to add an oil cooler to your Norton? Italy is not exactly desert is it?
the extra piping is another source of possible leaks...
the Commando motor is very well air cooled, I have ridden my Combat across the USA in high summer temps on the interstates at 75mph all day with no consequences
you will be adding complexity, and for quite dubious benefit if any at all...
can you tell us why you feel you need to add an oil cooler to your Norton? Italy is not exactly desert is it?
the extra piping is another source of possible leaks...
the Commando motor is very well air cooled, I have ridden my Combat across the USA in high summer temps on the interstates at 75mph all day with no consequences
you will be adding complexity, and for quite dubious benefit if any at all...
ashman
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I have run a oil cooler on all my Bristish bikes and have so my Norton for 40 years now, I run it all year round without any problems at all, run the line from the return hose from the motor up to the cooler then back to the filter then oil tank, I have never had problems with water in my oil from running to cool.
When I first brought my Norton new in 76 the motor would run hot in traffic and idle high because of the heat, after 6 months I put the oil cooler on and instandly the motor ran cooler, idle dropped to nomal when the motor was hot and overall the Norton ran a lot better, before the oil cooler I couldn't even touch the oil tank without burning my fingers it was so hot, but now I am running a round central alloy oil tank I can rest my hand on the oil tank without any problems from a hot oil tank.
I also find my oil last longer between oil changes as well without any top up inbetween oil changes, the oil tank I run on my Norton is only 3 ltr capasity 2 ltr oil and 1 ltr cirulation so with the oil cooler and filter gives me a extra 1/2 ltr of oil, but of course our summers are very hot here in Aussie land, our winters are very mild.
Ashley
When I first brought my Norton new in 76 the motor would run hot in traffic and idle high because of the heat, after 6 months I put the oil cooler on and instandly the motor ran cooler, idle dropped to nomal when the motor was hot and overall the Norton ran a lot better, before the oil cooler I couldn't even touch the oil tank without burning my fingers it was so hot, but now I am running a round central alloy oil tank I can rest my hand on the oil tank without any problems from a hot oil tank.
I also find my oil last longer between oil changes as well without any top up inbetween oil changes, the oil tank I run on my Norton is only 3 ltr capasity 2 ltr oil and 1 ltr cirulation so with the oil cooler and filter gives me a extra 1/2 ltr of oil, but of course our summers are very hot here in Aussie land, our winters are very mild.
Ashley
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You wouldn't say that if you had monitored the oil temperature.
The problem with using fail/no fail as a determinant is even though nothing failed, you don't know how close to failure you are. Not to mention unnecessary and unwarranted deterioration. It's much like the overweight person who says they've never had a heart attack, so therefore their heart is in good shape. Do you feel the same way (dubious benefit) about adding an oil filter on a bike that came with none?
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I spent a few weeks during the summer monitoring the oil temperature of my 1972 Combat. I then called Spectro Oil. I spoke at length with an petroleum engineer. He highly recommended I run an oil cooler based upon the oil temperatures I was running. He also cautioned about too cold of oil temperatures, as well. Along with a cooler I installed a thermostat.
The conversation with the petroleum engineer got me to thinking about the relatively high wear rates of the Commando engine. Could be an air cooled twin has a high oil temperature resulting in less friction protection from the oil.
I see no one posting a resistance to adding oil filters on their Nortons, but for some reason oil coolers get a different response.
The conversation with the petroleum engineer got me to thinking about the relatively high wear rates of the Commando engine. Could be an air cooled twin has a high oil temperature resulting in less friction protection from the oil.
I see no one posting a resistance to adding oil filters on their Nortons, but for some reason oil coolers get a different response.
Onder
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Speaking of coolers and thermostats, Tridents come with a cooler as delivered. However, no 'stat. There have been
some who put one in and then report lower oil pressure. Since dry sump bikes use essentially two pumps, one in one
out, Im sort of puzzled how this could be.
Norman Hyde said that he made a oil cooler for the Bonneville because there was a demand for it not any particular
need. Im wondering if he was correct as long as you are in the UK as it rarely get hot there. In fact Ive always thought
that brit bikes run hot everywhere but in the UK or maybe Canada.
If there is one thing that this list shines at it is the number of investigations based on data rather than guess work and
old wives tales.
....thx Comnoz.....
some who put one in and then report lower oil pressure. Since dry sump bikes use essentially two pumps, one in one
out, Im sort of puzzled how this could be.
Norman Hyde said that he made a oil cooler for the Bonneville because there was a demand for it not any particular
need. Im wondering if he was correct as long as you are in the UK as it rarely get hot there. In fact Ive always thought
that brit bikes run hot everywhere but in the UK or maybe Canada.
If there is one thing that this list shines at it is the number of investigations based on data rather than guess work and
old wives tales.
....thx Comnoz.....
ashman
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JimC said:
Another thing I have found running a oil cooler on all my British bikes and yes have owned a few Triumphs as well my Norton is I have always had long life out of my motors, my Norton was a everyday ride for most of its 40 years of its life and has well over 140,000 miles (average between 6,000 to 10,000 miles a year), my 1981 Triumph TR65 Thunderbird I brought new and in 9 years of owning it (oil cooler fitted after its first service) in the 9 years of hard riding it with 250,000ks on the clock before it got its first top end rebuild (head and rebore) but the bottem end didn't get touched and to this day I have regretted selling that Triumph, but thats another story, so I think running a oil cooler has helped me get long life out of my motors as well as reliablity as well my motors, Norton and Triumphs have never had any oil leaks, not sure the oil cooler helped with that.
Ashley
mdt-son
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Hi all,
I will be fitting an oil cooler to my Mk3 (still in build). Trying to avoid long oil lines and the addition of potential leaks, inspired by the IT industry I have considered utilising heat pipe technology. Coolers using phase transitions (e.g., liquid to gas) are typically 100 times more effective than passive coolers relying on convection to air, given the same area of heat pick-up. Specifically, I have considered an evaporator made of copper built into the oil tank which allows water under partial vacuum (0.345 bar / 5 psi) to evaporate at 72 'C/ 162 'F. The vapour is then led to a a simple condenser attached to a large heat sink outside of the oil tank. After condensation the water is routed back to the evaporator in a closed loop.
A suitable heat sink would be the rear mudguard! It's all very simple, but space is limited on the Mk3, so proper packaging is essential.
Hopefully the seat pan won't heat up too much ......
For those scary of a potential water leak inside the oil tank, the evaporator may be fitted outside the tank by welding in an inverted base with cooling ribs and attaching the evaporator to the base using a thermal agent, e.g. silicon). Heat conduction will suffer somewhat with this kind of design.
The system also eliminates a thermostat by simply becoming ineffective at temperatures lower than approx. 80 'C / 176 'F.
I should add that no calculations have been made for such a system as yet.
-Knut
I will be fitting an oil cooler to my Mk3 (still in build). Trying to avoid long oil lines and the addition of potential leaks, inspired by the IT industry I have considered utilising heat pipe technology. Coolers using phase transitions (e.g., liquid to gas) are typically 100 times more effective than passive coolers relying on convection to air, given the same area of heat pick-up. Specifically, I have considered an evaporator made of copper built into the oil tank which allows water under partial vacuum (0.345 bar / 5 psi) to evaporate at 72 'C/ 162 'F. The vapour is then led to a a simple condenser attached to a large heat sink outside of the oil tank. After condensation the water is routed back to the evaporator in a closed loop.
A suitable heat sink would be the rear mudguard! It's all very simple, but space is limited on the Mk3, so proper packaging is essential.
Hopefully the seat pan won't heat up too much ......
For those scary of a potential water leak inside the oil tank, the evaporator may be fitted outside the tank by welding in an inverted base with cooling ribs and attaching the evaporator to the base using a thermal agent, e.g. silicon). Heat conduction will suffer somewhat with this kind of design.
The system also eliminates a thermostat by simply becoming ineffective at temperatures lower than approx. 80 'C / 176 'F.
I should add that no calculations have been made for such a system as yet.
-Knut
fiatfan
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mdt-son said:Hi all,
I will be fitting an oil cooler to my Mk3 (still in build). Trying to avoid long oil lines and the addition of potential leaks, inspired by the IT industry I have considered utilising heat pipe technology. Coolers using phase transitions (e.g., liquid to gas) are typically 100 times more effective than passive coolers relying on convection to air, given the same area of heat pick-up. Specifically, I have considered an evaporator made of copper built into the oil tank which allows water under partial vacuum (0.345 bar / 5 psi) to evaporate at 72 'C/ 162 'F. The vapour is then led to a a simple condenser attached to a large heat sink outside of the oil tank. After condensation the water is routed back to the evaporator in a closed loop.
A suitable heat sink would be the rear mudguard! It's all very simple, but space is limited on the Mk3, so proper packaging is essential.
Hopefully the seat pan won't heat up too much ......
For those scary of a potential water leak inside the oil tank, the evaporator may be fitted outside the tank by welding in an inverted base with cooling ribs and attaching the evaporator to the base using a thermal agent, e.g. silicon). Heat conduction will suffer somewhat with this kind of design.
The system also eliminates a thermostat by simply becoming ineffective at temperatures lower than approx. 80 'C / 176 'F.
I should add that no calculations have been made for such a system as yet.
-Knut
Hei Knut
Personally I would never go for a water contraption in the oil tank, but that's me. But the idea seems sort of interesting and is probably something that´s never been done, someone has to be the first! I say go for it!
Tommy
fiatfan
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JimC wrote: "I see no one posting a resistance to adding oil filters on their Nortons, but for some reason oil coolers get a different response."
I got the same kind of response when posting the same question a couple of months ago. My idea was to place the cooler on the pressure hose to the cyl.head, I feel that a little cooler oil could do the most good at the hottest place in the engine. Now I don´t live in any kind of desert conditions, by no means, but I just won´t believe that the oil can get too cold for the engine by running it via a cooler. Not even in the summer temperatures normal to my home surroundings, mostly just about 18-25 degrees centergrade, occasionally up to a bit over 30.
Tommy
I got the same kind of response when posting the same question a couple of months ago. My idea was to place the cooler on the pressure hose to the cyl.head, I feel that a little cooler oil could do the most good at the hottest place in the engine. Now I don´t live in any kind of desert conditions, by no means, but I just won´t believe that the oil can get too cold for the engine by running it via a cooler. Not even in the summer temperatures normal to my home surroundings, mostly just about 18-25 degrees centergrade, occasionally up to a bit over 30.
Tommy
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Folks got a bit off track from your original question. Here is a link to the Old Britts page that shows the oil line diagram. http://www.oldbritts.com/oillines.htmlpierodn said:
As to if you should or shouldn't run an oil cooler you're the only one that needs to make that call. I run them on all three of my air cooled bikes. All are equipped with a thermostat that opens at 225F. None of them leak and I have a bit more piece of mind. I live in Washington State which has a fairly cool moist climate so they may be over kill for MOST but not all of my riding. Two up, lots of gear, long upgrades, hot temps, stuck behind air blocking trucks, etc...it all can and does occur. My newest air cooled bike is a fairly stock Harley Road King with just under 100,000 miles. I put an oil cooler on that bike 4,500 miles after buying it new in September of 2000. I had oil temperatures around 300F riding two up in 90f ambient. I now watch my oil temp climb and at about 230-235 the T-stat closes and diverts the oil to the cooler. It then runs between 225-230 regardless of air temp. Two up a couple of years ago in Nevada and 112 degrees made me glad it was there.
ashman
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Craig said:
Where ever it gets the best cool air flowing through it, my Lochart cooler sits just under the steering head across the frame it gets free flow air from between the front forks where the cool air flows over the top of the gaurd, all my British bike have been set up this way.
Some have worried about the extra oil lines and worring about oil leaks caused by them, I use rubber oil lines from the motor down the bottom of the left frame rail tucked on the inside of the frame up to the cooler then return the line from the righ side of the frame back to the oil tank, I have no oil line hanging down, they are all neatly tucked away and after 40 years set up this way I have never had any problems with the hoses leaking or getting caught on any thing, my oil cooler sits up the top front of the frame and only has one mounting bolt.
Ashley
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pierodn said:
Always on the return as that is where the greatest opportunity is to shed heat (at a higher temperature).
Craig said:
If you go horizontal across the down tubes, make sure you have adequate clearance with the fender. Check no less than three times. I used a Lockhart filter years ago and checked clearance twice but that was inadequate and I dented the fender.
Avoid placing the cooler where it can get struck by road debris. Assuming your location will dictate your riding climate, I strongly recommend a thermostat control for the cooler.
Being pragmatic, unless there is something extraordinary here, you do not need an oil cooler and an oil cooler (without a thermostat) will do more harm than good.
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