Oil Change guide and Oil type

Hello, folks. I have three quick questions:
1. On this Andover Norton page http://www.nortonmotors.de/ANIL/SI Oil.htm they list oils to use for a Norton. Does this apply to a 1974 Norton Commando 850? Price is no issue, I just want to make sure I use the best oil possible for my bike.
2. One the same page, there is a differentiation between "Engine" and "Primary". What is the difference?
3. Can somebody point me to a good guide as to how to change the oil on a 1974 Norton Commando 850, other than that which appears in the workshop manual? I'm a newb, so, mock if you will, but pretty pictures and/or a slightly more detailed set of instructions would definitely benefit somebody of my <lack of> skill level.

I know this must have been answered before, and I've performed a cursory search here, but there seems to be a LOT of conflicting advice. I'm hoping for some fresh responses.

Thanks.

I don't know how your 850 drains oil, generally a drain plug under side cover that points up hill to L if on sidestand so oil tends to adhere to tank and flow off parts to floor, so a funnel scoop under tank to flow into catch container. Also pull sump plug to get that cup or so out too. Primary is separated from crank case oil but can use same oil as engine and IF E-start then hydraulic tensioner needs engine oil thickness other wise many run ATF for the clutch plate protection. If cost no issue then search up Royal Purple or Red Line or Harley vintage air cooled push rod lifter oils to spend about as much as a good tire each change. I'm more a penny pincher so use 15/40 Rotella diesel oil most the time. Mobil 1 used to be the best off the shelf department store oil but they've changed the formula so not same stuff as past. The ZZAP stuff should be in the 1000-1500 ppm range but that ain't listed on the containers.

gardenzombie said:

Hello, folks. I have three quick questions:
1. On this Andover Norton page http://www.nortonmotors.de/ANIL/SI Oil.htm they list oils to use for a Norton. Does this apply to a 1974 Norton Commando 850? Price is no issue, I just want to make sure I use the best oil possible for my bike.
2. One the same page, there is a differentiation between "Engine" and "Primary". What is the difference?
3. Can somebody point me to a good guide as to how to change the oil on a 1974 Norton Commando 850, other than that which appears in the workshop manual? I'm a newb, so, mock if you will, but pretty pictures and/or a slightly more detailed set of instructions would definitely benefit somebody of my <lack of> skill level.

I know this must have been answered before, and I've performed a cursory search here, but there seems to be a LOT of conflicting advice. I'm hoping for some fresh responses.

Thanks.

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You will get fresh responses and you will get may conflicting bits of information as with any oil thread.

1. Best is very subjective.
2. The engine includes the head, crankases, oil tank and timing case(right side). That is all the same oil in a single circuit. The primary is on the left side of the bike and contains the primary chain/belt, clutch and stator. That is a different type of oil.
3. I think the manual is pretty self explanatory. If there is a part that they are referring to and you are not sure what it is, use either a parts manual or go to http://www.oldbritts.com and use the exploded diagrams they have. You will want to heat the oil by running the bike for a few minutes. Drain the oil as completely as possible and clean the screens in the oil tank and sump. Replace crush washers. If your drain plug has a magnet check it for metal pieces. I will also run my oil through a fine screen to see if there are any bad bits in there.

I personally use a multigrade 20w-50 in the engine and ATF(Automatic Trans Fluid) in the Primary.

Edit in red. Thanks Hobot.

Drones meant to list the timing side case not primary case in the main engine oil system. Commando can work fine with same oil in forks gear box engine and primary though forks might be harsh with 50 grade in them in cold conditions. 90 grade gear lube is like 40 grade engine oil thinness.

The workshop manual does cover the procedure pretty well.
Engine oil change is best done on the center stand -

- Remove the right side cover (2 bolts under the seat). This will expose the oil tank.
- Remove drain plug on oil tank, and as hobot stated you'll need a good flowing funnel (big nozzle) to catch what flows out and direct it to your catch bottle. I usually tape or tie my funnel to the kickstart lever so I don't have to stand there holding it. Drain the tank.
- Remove the small drain plug at the bottom of the engine cases - I think it's 9/16" hex - and drain the engine. This plug also has a magnet which you'll want to examine for metal particles.
- Remove the large screen plug, also on the engine bottom. The '74 850 will require a 1-1/2" wrench. Clean and inspect the screen filter.
- Remove the spin-on oil filter that's between the frame and the rear fender. Normal hardware there includes a regular worm-drive "hose clamp" that clamps the filter to a small bracket. It's belt & suspenders to keep filter from loosening.

Primary drive is separate, on the left. Remove primary cover with the 3/4" chrome hex nut and slowly separate the cover. I put the bike on the side stand for this and a shallow pan underneath to catch the oil. When it stops flowing, remove the primary cover (easier to do if the left footrest is removed first) and clean out the primary with some rags and carb cleaner spray.

Engine and primary oil recommended by the factory were both Castrol 20/50 but their formula has changed with time and is no longer ideal for flat tappet pushrod engines. We need zinc, and my choice is VR-1 racing oil. Heavy oil in the primary tends to make clutch plates stick, and most of us have switched to ATF for that. Fill the primary with 7 oz.

the guy who rebuilt my motor, who's been doing brit bikes his whole life also recommended the valvoline vr1 like dave mentioned

hello,
I have used as per manual castrol 20/50 for 34 years and have had no problems. I am not a racer but am not afraid to crack onto it either. I like the sound of hard acceleration thats what has always driven me to ride a norton. Love it.
changing the oil I use a vaccumn no mess suck it out then take plug out clean and check strainer. Also remove plug from bottom crankcase not much oil here however important check is the magnet looking for metal bits which is a sure sign trouble ahead.
regards Dox

An oil thread can get out of hand quick, but I did some research here when I bought my current Commando and decided to go with Mobil V Twin 20w/50 as the arguments for it were convincing. So far as the change goes I'm using an extractor to suck it out of the tank and that works great. The consensus here on primary case lubrication seemed to be to use Type F ATF. The Mobil 1 is easy to find, many auto parts stores carry it...

The oil requirements of the Commando are different than many mdern engines because: 1) it's engine oil is not used to lubricate the clutch, the "wet clutch compatible" compromise isn't needed, 2) it's the flat tappets require ant-wear additive, ZDDP, which has been reduced in newer STREET oils for EPA requirement reasons. Harleys have roller lifters, so all the "V-twin" oils are really not a good choice. Valvoline VR-1 racing oil is a good choice, which contains ZDDP and no "wet clutch" compromise.

Castrol did a C.R.I. 40 , petrol diesel turbo oil . extreme pressure extreme temperature . Was used for V8 raceing too .
The monograde requires 5 minutes before you use higher rpms though to avoid overpressureiseing things . Oils for
antique wotsits with big bits going around inside are the go , not the whizzer oils . Shell oil for older cars , 30/40 was
designed to blow up older cars , in my opinion . As the Bently chap said , the older it is , the better oil you want .

DONT go for the Cheap Stuff . Kendall 50 Wt for hot weather & high speed . 30 Wt if its snowing .

Disconecting return line and starting after oil change , to purge system of ALL old Oil isnt a bad idea. RUN untill the clean oil is dischargeing , stop and reconect .

Make Sure you dont run the tank dry doing it , near impossible , but . . .

The model Aircraft , running SYNTHETIC , the two odds are he high flash point , and that it RUNS AWAY from (extreme ) heat . Where the Castor , besides makeing a mess
RUNS TOWARD HEAT . Therefore under dress seeks the hot spots . So we suggest you use CASTOR OIL . :lol: unfortunately , after a few years unused , itd set in the oilways .
If started regularly its no problem ,

We use 3 % syn as additve with Castor Glow fuel ( methanol / nitro ) . Maybe 50 / 50 Syn Cator for ringed . and 3 % Castor additive if all Syn .

The Olde Mehanite ( Long Grain Cast Iron ) piston / steel liner motors use CASTOR . they fall to bits if run in or used on Synthetic , unless fully loosened off .and even then
its just a dodge to reduce oil content so theres more fuel . Then when theyre shot , theyre shot . This is Model Aircraft engines though . 20.000 rpms or 10.000 for aerobatics .

Still CASTOR is a hard oil to beat , protection wise . Something Suitable for Large Truck Engines has the right splash & resistance characteristics in Mineral oils , which arnt solulable
in Methanol / nitromethane .

Or High strength Additives are usefull in conventional oils to enhance durability .

I spent most of a wet weekend day recently reading forums for air-cooled and vintage cars about oil as they have the same problems with cam and lifter interfaces. Castrol Edge 20/50w got really high marks for prolonged cam life.

Russ

I use the Valvoline VR-1 oil in my Nortons for the engine, either 20W-50 or straight 50, depending on season. I like it because it is available down at my local auto parts store, and is the same price or a little cheaper than the other big name conventional oils. Synthetic oil is unnecessary in my opinion, as the long-life benefits of synthetic don't matter when you change the oil every 2000 miles or so. As others have stated, the zinc additive, ZDDP (Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) is vitally important for flat tappets and plain bearings, and whatever oil you use should have it for a happy engine. ZDDP is restricted in the latest oil specifications (restrictions started with API SJ, further reduced in SL and almost gone in SM).

Back when the Commando was new, the API service rating was 'SE' and ZDDP content was typically around 2000ppm.

I found two API brochures, one from 2002 and one from 2010. The references in the 2002 guide are mostly gone in the 2010 guide

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concours said:

The oil requirements of the Commando are different than many mdern engines because: 1) it's engine oil is not used to lubricate the clutch, the "wet clutch compatible" compromise isn't needed, 2) it's the flat tappets require ant-wear additive, ZDDP, which has been reduced in newer STREET oils for EPA requirement reasons. Harleys have roller lifters, so all the "V-twin" oils are really not a good choice. Valvoline VR-1 racing oil is a good choice, which contains ZDDP and no "wet clutch" compromise.

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not correct at least so far as Mobil 1 V twin goes, it has the right levels of zinc and phosphorus for flat tappets...there are many threads on this here and elsewhere...don't know if this is the case for any other V twin oils

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concours said:

The oil requirements of the Commando are different than many mdern engines because: 1) it's engine oil is not used to lubricate the clutch, the "wet clutch compatible" compromise isn't needed, 2) it's the flat tappets require ant-wear additive, ZDDP, which has been reduced in newer STREET oils for EPA requirement reasons. Harleys have roller lifters, so all the "V-twin" oils are really not a good choice. Valvoline VR-1 racing oil is a good choice, which contains ZDDP and no "wet clutch" compromise.

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It's not a question of whether there's ZDDP in there, it's how much. At least 2500ppm or 0.20% of zinc and phosphorous each is good. Redline motorcycle oil has it. Now for a discussion about synthetic vs dino.

bluto said:

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This was/is a good read. I like the part about conventional multi grades and the usage of polymers. I was interesting to know that low base oils like 10w-40 require more polymers than 20w-50 and that fact that "polymers can shear and burn, thus creating deposits which can cause valves and piston rings to stick".

The article also states that synthetics have a key advantage of using little to no polymers at all.

I feel that the conclusion is if using conventional oil go straight 50w, but if you want multi grade you should go synthetic.

Using a conventional 10w-40 should be avoided.

yawn....... an oil thread :roll:

mikegray660 said:

yawn....... an oil thread :roll:

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Hey Mike, That good info. Thank for sharing.

pvisseriii said:

This was/is a good read. I like the part about conventional multi grades and the usage of polymers. I was interesting to know that low base oils like 10w-40 require more polymers than 20w-50 and that fact that "polymers can shear and burn, thus creating deposits which can cause valves and piston rings to stick".

Click to expand...

In addition to that, for a 10w40 oil when the polymers are shot you are left with 10 weight oil.