O-ring chain

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Sparks Renthal dont make chain its re-branded, dont pay big bucks for a "name" do some
research.

Andy
 
Once again please please please look at O ring chains carefully as there are
many pros and cons.

Biggest con in that most Brit bikes need altering with sprockets to get the wider chain
on.

Pro if you ride your bike all weathers and frequently they are a good idea.

Con, loss of power, many arguments, but around 4-6 HP.

Here in UK Brit bike owners rarely use sealed chains as there are companies selling good
quality British Standard chains, for instance iwis and Regina (in my humble opinion the rest
are not in the same league). Google me, The Chain Man or Sprockets Unlimited.

The original Renold stamped Renold UK or Renold England was a very good chain, no
longer unfortunatley (I am a share holder) but now chains are made to DIN which is not
a quality standard more a measurement standard.

It is a shame I cannot get over and do talks to clubs as I do monthly to clubs in the UK.

There have been some nice comments re the iwis product on here and my advice to in order
to educate not sell as I will never be rich but I do sleep at night.

Andy
 
Thanks Andy, The bike shop that fitted my tyres did me a few favours and I bought the chain as thanks. It cost me a bomb (AUD$150). I'm up for another for the new bike, what would you recommend?
 
Depends.

As stated O ring isnt a bad idea for daily commutes.

Basic rule of thumb is that bikes dont break chains, if they do find out why, they
wear chains. So good material is far more important than thick plates giving high
breaking load.

Also many Brit bikes need crank links to get best adjustment and these just arent made
for many chains.

I recommend the iwis M106SL, as the material quality is superb, chromised pin etc etc
and I like to sleep at night. I run it on my Bandit 1200 and I ride like I stole it.

I have sold many to Brit bikers and Laverda riders in OZ and also supplied the Carberry
Enfield when it was being produced.

Andy

PS What bike is it for?
 
Re the stated HP loss, this was listed before and refuted, so will give it one more go. Please show dynometer readings where 4-6 HP is lost by switching from unsealed to sealed chain on a Norton, the bike being discussed here.
The only dynomometer reports I have seen/heard of were 1. Jim Comstock found that, on his dyno, the dif in HP between sealed and unsealed chain is less than a line thickness on the graph, ie not measureable.
2. A clubmate and owner of Modern Motorcycling, the Suzuki dealership in Vancouver has a very busy dyno, which has done thousands of runs over the years. Most of the bikes he dynos are in the 100- 170 rwhp range. I asked him about the sealed / unsealed powerloss and the answer was same as Jim found, no difference in HP readings between a modern sealed x ring chain and unsealed. In fact he said that unsealed chain wears quite quickly and actually makes less power(fighting and wearing sprockets) than sealed after a couple of thousand miles. An unsealed chain with 2 or 3 thousand miles on it shows up as a bumpy line on the dyno. By switching to sealed the line goes smooth and a little higher. Replacing the chain with unsealed would also do this, but not for long.

Finally, modern GP bikes all run sealed chain. I know this because a good friend went to Laguna Seca last year and was able to meet the racers and discuss their bikes. He was given two of the used chains, which were Tsubaki x ring top of the line, same as any of us can buy. He is running both of these chains as they are still fine for a roadbike.
The GP bikes are 250 HP machines. If a 60 hp Norton really lost 6 HP or ten percent of it's power to a sealed chain, then a 250 HP machine would lose 25 HP, not on for race bikes.



Glen
 
Not getting into shit again

As I said many arguments but even manufacturers state less power loss with X ring against O ring.

As this is a Norton Commando forum it is important to know that however good sealed chains are
there are no crank links made for it. Commandos with 20 and 21 tooth sprockets need 99 links so
go to your friendly bike shop and see if they can supply. The same applies to Dominators, Atlas,
ES2 on rear and primary, International, Model 7 just to name few Nortons. Then we get into all
the other Brit bikes where most need a crank link in the primary or rear.

Please dont get me wrong but classic bikes need classic chain, but most available are crap.

I will just add that in BSB this year a couple of teams are allegedly running the iwis 1/2" pitch chain
which saves them some HP, very light very good material spec and very cheap compared with what
they have been using.

I do supply several Norton racers with O ring primary drives where it works well on open systems.

You dont have to take my advice gained in over 45 years in the industry, your call, but please dont
give me grief.

Andy

Going off to hide :(
 
Just spent an age on the interweb and the actual figure would appear to be 1-1.5hp loss.

On a modern machine nothing but on a 20-30 hp machine ?????
 
andychain said:
As I said many arguments but even manufacturers state less power loss with X ring against O ring.

(

I had an Oring chain. I think it came from Old Brits. Good quality but oh my, I thought I was seizing up. I had to rinse in down with spirits to get it to move good but still had an effect on power. After a couple years, found out about the x ring variety. Quite frankly, I notice little to no lose of power with the vx and all the advantages of the 530 size. No interference.
 
Chain came yesterday. Most places list it for around $90+, so I did OK. EK apparently doesn't make a half-link (or crank link, as it has been referred to).
 
I think youll find no Japanese manufacturers do crank links even on non O ring chain.

But I wait to be corrected.

Andy
 
I just found some for standard chains, although I didn't check the manufacturer because when this one goes on, I'll have no non-sealed chains.
 
Standard Brits classic have chain 10B-1 on rear and 08B-1 on primary.

Some may get away with ASA50 but it is a little wider, on the rear, but
on the primary ASA40 has a smaller roller than 08B so although it looks
OK it will give problems when run.

Trouble is that the vast majority of chains made today have crap steel.
I will only sell iwis and Regina for classics. Also I sell RK for modern bikes and
530 runs out at around £70 - £80.

I could bore the crap out of you all going on about steel quality, clip design
and other pitfalls.

Andy :D
 
Other than the dyno results I mentioned from Jim and also Murray at Modern MCs, which should be enough for anyone who follows this forum, I could not find any reliable info on chain drag.
I though the internet would be a great source for this type of info, apparently not.

So here is a practical test anyone can do to determine drag. It is called a coasting test and is sometimes done in a windless environment by automakers to determine overall drag of a new design.
I couldn't replicate a windless environment, but there is very little wind here today and it is coming from the south. My direction of travel is east, so the south wind has virtually no effect on things.
For the test I road the bike along a flat stretch of road at 50 MPH (GPS) in second gear then kicked it into neutral when alongside a telephone pole which happens to have a white marker. The bike coasted for 7 spans (200' per span) plus about sixty feet before coming to a halt. As luck would have it, there was a roadside international boundary marker exactly at the stopping point. I repeated the test twice more and came short of the marker by fifteen feet first time then made it about ten feet past the marker. So the marker is good +- a very tiny percentage, less than one tenth of one percent.
Ideally, it would be nice to remove the xring chain and replace it with a standard chain then repeat the test. The master link is the rivetted type, so I do not want to do this. Instead, I have a similar bike with a standard chain, so it will be interesting to see how far it coasts on the same stretch of road coming from the same GPS measured speed.
If the x ring bike is really dragging as suggested, the difference in coasting distances should be quite great. The - HP due to drag is quite easily calculated with the coast test.

Any bets?

Glen
 
The bike with the non sealed chain did coast a little further down the road. In three goes it went, thirty feet past the marker, about 20 feet past, then just a few feet past the marker. Since it is a different bike, this could be down to wheel bearings or tire pressure, but even if it is all due to the sealed vs non sealed chain, 1480 feet of coasting vs 1460 isn't a difference that anyone will ever feel, nor will it ever matter on a road bike. I might do the calculations, but it will be fractional horsepower and a small fraction at that.
When the bike with the non sealed chain gets a new sealed chain, I will do a repeat test, that should give added accuracy.
I think those claims of big horsepower loss are from old days oring technology, not applicable to modern x ring.

Glen
 
I put a x ring on my 850 last year. The main reason wasnt to avoid maintenance and adjustment but because
I really hate the grease and the dirt it attracts all over the back.
So what we need then is a X ring that has half links available. Perhaps that is what all the fuss should be about.
 
Wasn't a lot of fuss to do the test .
Given what some of us spend on our engines to get five or six more horsepower, I would like to know for sure if it can be had by simply changing back to a regular chain. The 4-6 hp claim has been made by Andy a couple of times now, and his specialty is chains, so I thought it worth checking out in Mythbusters style.

A half link wasn't needed for the MK3, but might be for some other models of Commando.
As Andy has indicated, there are none available in sealed type, so if your bike setup requires a half link then non sealed chain is your only choice.
With sealed chain, if it fits on there new with room in the adjusters for just a teensy bit of adjustment over then next 20,000 miles or so, you are good to go, no half links will be needed.

RK states that a non sealed chain is worn out when it grows 2.25" (average 75" chain) and sealed chain should be replaced when it grows .75" beyond it's original length. This means that a minimum of 3/8" of adjustment space is needed behind the axle on a new sealed chain installation.

Glen
 
Hi worntorn.
Re: "With sealed chain, if it fits on there new with room in the adjusters for just a teensy bit of adjustment over then next 20,000 miles or so, you are good to go, no half links will be needed."

My bike has an o-ring chain and early style adjusters. I put the adjuster locknuts forward of the adjuster block so a half link would not be needed i.e. picked up the locknuts height in additional chain adjustment (and reduced wheel centres distance accordingly).
Ta.

Ps: thanks for the experiment to validate drag claims.
 
All chain, sealed or not is shagged at 2% elongation, on most bikes around 1.5".

Not rocket science just all chain has 2% case hardening, any more you get brittle pins
and any less poor wear. Hint you also get poor wear with crap steel regardless of
case hardening. Also on budget product the hardening may not be even.

After this you are on the soft stuff. With non sealed chain it lets you know, problem
with sealed chain is that the seals make it difficult to test so you have to dismantle
and mic the pins. I have seen some sealed chains 5-6 times over the wear limit.

To avoid this some modern bikes have a marker on the swinging arm showing when
to change chain and it is nowhere near full adjustment.

On the thorny subject of O ring etc, I have always said the power loss is a small % but
when you have low power machines a small % makes a difference 1.5% of a 100hp means
feck all 1.5% on a 20hp will show.

I will wait for the court papers :D :D :D :D :D :D

Andy
 
My other bike has 170 bhp and over 30K miles on a sealed chain. It is starting to get a little elongated, although I haven't checked how close it is to the service limit length given in the factory bible. All the O or X rings are still intact which usually means some of the lube is still inside which, in turn means very small wear per mileage. I keep the roller-to-sprocket contact points lubed daily when on the road and every 300 miles (or when the rollers get shiny) when not. With a non-sealed chain, the only way to keep the pin-to-roller interface lubricated is to frequently remove the chain and soak it in oil. No way any spray or drip-on lube is going to accomplish that. I don't think hp loss would be measurable once the Lubriplate EK coats their chains with is gone from repeated cleanings and miles. I use BelRay Supeclean for regular lube and Liquid Wrench chain lube for cleaning because it's high in solvent. Post chain cleaning is normally the only rear wheel cleaning made necessary by chain fling.
 
andychain said:
All chain, sealed or not is shagged at 2% elongation, on most bikes around 1.5".

Not rocket science just all chain has 2% case hardening, any more you get brittle pins
and any less poor wear. Hint you also get poor wear with crap steel regardless of
case hardening. Also on budget product the hardening may not be even.

After this you are on the soft stuff. With non sealed chain it lets you know, problem
with sealed chain is that the seals make it difficult to test so you have to dismantle
and mic the pins. I have seen some sealed chains 5-6 times over the wear limit.

To avoid this some modern bikes have a marker on the swinging arm showing when
to change chain and it is nowhere near full adjustment.

On the thorny subject of O ring etc, I have always said the power loss is a small % but
when you have low power machines a small % makes a difference 1.5% of a 100hp means
feck all 1.5% on a 20hp will show.

I will wait for the court papers :D :D :D :D :D :D

Andy

Andy - 1.5% of 100hp = 1.5 hp; 1.5% of 20hp = 0.3hp. Assuming this is the case (I have no data either) then a 0.3% loss would be hardly noticeable on a 20hp road machine. On a small classic race bike, however, you are looking to reduce all sources of friction, however small, both inside the engine and out, so a non-sealed chain would probably be the tool of choice for tuners in this situation.

Glenn - as we know, sealed chains are quite stiff when cold, but free up a bit when they get warm in use, so maybe that should be built in to your test results? I.e. an excuse to go for a burn before freewheeling the distance :)
 
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