Numbers stamped to headstock

I have been involved in trademarks and IP for many years, and know about patents and their lifespan. I am aware LEGALLY everybody can copy anything and call it something else, or say "suitable for XYZ".

What I was trying to do was to let you see my point of view- not so much legally, but morally founded- why I think we, Andover Norton, should continue to make those parts and why we are best qualified to do it.

I don't doubt there are a fair number of aftermarket parts on offer that update and better what Norton did in Commando production times. Some of them I use on my own fleet- PW3 camshafts, Pazon ignitions, our brake improvent kit, our headsteady etc.
That said, in my opinion founded on riding and racing Commandos since 1977 and being a parts dealer since 1978 the overwhelming majority of the aftermarket parts are at best the answer to no question or, at worst, dangerous s**t.

My personal opinion, and I sell only what I would fit to my Nortons, or those of my Norton-riding kids (they all ride Nortons).

Joe/Andover Norton

We also have to consider that not only AN manufacture and sell all those parts that other people sell but they are also the only one willing to manufacture ALL (or near all) parts , even those than other vendor don't care to store as they are on limited demand or not profitable enough for them .

So if AN can provide dating service it would be appreciated , a few more aftermarket improvement parts would be OK . But I'm happy with what is accomplished by AN to keep Norton running. Having own other bikes where the factory didn't care of their heritage I can tell you that's it's an all different world in term of prices , part quality and availability.

ZFD said:

Is this because you own the Norton trademarks? Hmm...

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Not a very informed question!

I have not owned any Norton trademarks since I sold my part of them to Kenny Dreer in 2002.

I see the Norton spares as "ours", i.e. Andover Nortons, because that is what the company was set up for. Its purpose was to distribute and eventually re-manufacture the genuine Norton parts using tooling and drawings. The company has had these genuine parts re-manufactured using that original tooling and those original drawings since 1978, bar a period in between, when Norton took the spares back from 1982-1991.

If a third party makes Norton parts I see that as pirating our parts. Now understood?

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In the late 80's, on one of my trips to England, the INOA newsletter editor and I interviewed Le Roux at Norton/Shenstone. This must have been in a period when Norton M/C "took back" distribution of "norton" parts. I did buy a bundle of parts from the Norton factory at Shenstone.
If my recollection is not correct, Please advise me. I was led to believe that Andover Norton was spun off to sell, manufacture and hold the rights to "Commando" or is it only for spares.... Did this include all "Norton Heavy twins" 1949-1975...including featherbed and garden gate models? Did it include the rights to ALL nortons including rotaries?
In 1991 What rights were sold to BSA-Regal? What did you buy from BSA-Regal. Is it true that singles/manx are not included.
I thought I had some meger understanding of Norton transactions but time seems to have muddied the waters.
:?:

This is what I wrote earlier:

The company has had these genuine parts re-manufactured using that original tooling and those original drawings since 1978, bar a period in between, when Norton took the spares back from 1982-1991.

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In 1992 Andover Norton bought the parts and rights to manufacture back from Norton Motors Ltd/Shenstone. After that, Norton Motors Ltd went through so many corporate muddles and terminations it eventually folded in its original form and identity, so the original exclusive "license" became Andover Norton's property by default, i.e. there was no licensor left in existence.

Kenny Dreer, and all that came afterwards, never owned any IP bar the trademark "Norton" which was part bought, part acquired in court against the Aquilinis by Kenny/Norton America.

As for pre-Commando parts, a lot of items in Commandos, especially the early models, were pre-Commando. Of our drawings quite a number are on Norton Motors/Bracebridge Street (i.e. pre-1962) paper.

As for single cylinder parts, I don't see why we should be forbidden to do them, and if so, by whom?

Ditto for Dommi parts which, besides, were made and distributed by Andover Norton pre-1982, by Norton Motors Ltd from 1982-1991, and by us again after that period.

The argument that we are not allowed to do Dommi parts came from a leading pirate who was never part of Norton. My question if he wanted proof in old Andover Norton/Norton Motors price lists I still have, showing no end of parts for pre Commando models, say 04-0001 "gearbox mainshaft, Norton Dominator", was never answered by him. I am sure he still tries that propaganda behind my back.

Rotary parts, tooling and drawings were bought later in the factory auction in Shenstone by Richard Negus' and my company (new) Norton Motors Ltd. When Norton Motors Ltd was closed for the public, all this also went into Andover Norton.

Personally, after all this time, I have no difficulty with anyone making parts suitable for Nortons going back to the beginning but I do feel they should be honest about who and what they are. Andover Norton ticks the boxes in this regard as far as I'm concerned.

I'm quite happy to buy valves for the 16H from G&S Valves as the company is honest about who they are and what they make. I'm less inclined to believe the line of bullshit that has one well-known trader putting parts in a bag marked 'Genuine Single Cylinder (Trade Mark) Parts' and expects me to accept that they're something special. The quality of the part should be most important, not the ability to think up spurious trade names designed to squeeze out any competition.

JRD said:

So if AN can provide dating service it would be appreciated ,... .

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I agree, it would be almost appreciated.

Piero

ZFD said:

What I was trying to do was to let you see my point of view- not so much legally, but morally founded- why I think we, Andover Norton, should continue to make those parts and why we are best qualified to do it.

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I for one am very glad that AN make available, stock and finance new production of parts. It's great for me,the consumer, and i genuinely hope that long term, this continues.
BUT... you don't 'make those parts', so how can you be 'best qualified to do it'. They are made by third party manufacturers/suppliers, many of whom also supply other distributors or retailers like AN. Exactly the same product, made by exactly the same manufacturer can often be sourced easily through 'other' outlets.

I'm very grateful for AN, but this whole 'we have intellectual property' and 'our product is genuine' and everybody else's product is counterfeit, pirate sh*t line, is just ridiculous. It's Bully in the playground stuff.

I know one bully in the Norton playground, and that is not me.

If/when we have parts made, giving the machine shop our drawings, or the foundry our patterns, or the forging firm our tooling, why is that then not our, Genuine, not to be mistaken for somebody else's copy, Norton Factory Part?

I don't need to OWN the machine shop/foundry/forge, do I?

As I said, standard nuts, bolts, bearings etc I do not count into our IP.

Parts made to our spec, using our drawings and our tooling I do.

Joe/Andover Norton

BA10BOON said:

Exactly the same product, made by exactly the same manufacturer can often be sourced easily through 'other' outlets.

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Hm, if a part is manufactured by a supplier according to a drawing given to them by AN because the own it and then the supplier sells this part to a third party ... well, I'm not a lawyer but my guess is that such a modus operandi would actually be a crime in a lot of countries.


Tim

When I worked for an automotive parts maker we designed the part and prepared the drawing but the customer retained ownership of the design, when we wanted to produce aftermarket spares we bought the parts we made and sold to the customer from his dealer, made new drawings and kept the bought parts including receipt in a store. The parts were batched to where possible be made with the OE parts, only the identification stamps changed. So the same parts made on the same machines using the same materials and going by ZFD some were genuine and some were fake. We made Norton parts for several customers.

kommando said:

.....when we wanted to produce aftermarket spares we bought the parts we made and sold to the customer from his dealer, made new drawings and kept the bought parts including receipt in a store.

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I'd be tempted to say that your customer had a pretty lousy law dept in preparing the contracts beforehand. :wink:


Tim