Numbers stamped to headstock

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nznorton

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Fellow members,,

Can someone explain to me in a way that I can relay this information to my local motorcycle Registration people the reason why the number stamped into the headstock on my 1974 MK2 Commando does not match the one stamped into the red Vin plate .. Thanks for your help on this one ..

Regards from down under
Paul :D
 
nznorton said:
Can someone explain to me in a way that I can relay this information to my local motorcycle Registration people the reason why the number stamped into the headstock on my 1974 MK2 Commando does not match the one stamped into the red Vin plate ..
Click to expand...

Maybe Dynodave can help...

If your local authorities need something more officially looking get in contact with Joe Seifert at Norton Motors Germany (ZFD on this forum). I got some data sheet from him which our local authorities simply adored.


Tim
 
The factory was preparing in advance for the MK3 and introduced the extra frame number on the MK2 but continued the practice of stamping the plate with the engine number. Mine is the same and they used the frame stamped number for the docs and ignored the plate stamp.
 
If your registration authorities are as sharp as ours in the UK I pity you!

No matter how comprehensive and correct the answer from the forum, If the NZ authorities are like the UK, the NOC are possibly the only 'legitimate' source for this info - check their website, and it's well worth joining for lots of other reasons.

As an aside, I let our local vehicle inspector baffle himself to a standstill a while ago because my Ducati frame number was on the engine plate adjacent to the swinging arm... 'but it's supposed to be on the headstock'.
He hadn't seen one like that before - good job he didn't see my T140 (on the downtube) or my Domi (same as the Duke).

Whatever the frame number is, the VIN is the one they should be looking at, but... :roll:
 
kommando said:
The factory was preparing in advance for the MK3 and introduced the extra frame number on the MK2 but continued the practice of stamping the plate with the engine number.
Click to expand...

The non-matching "F1" frame numbers appeared on the 850 Mk1 models from sometime around mid-'73 so I must admit, I fail to see how this was somehow "preparing in advance for the Mk3"?
Preparing what in advance exactly?
 
the NOC are possibly the only 'legitimate' source for this info
Click to expand...

Well, I should be surprised. Why a registration authority should believe a club, i.e. an unqualified group of amateurs, rather than a company that decended in direct lineage from the manufacturer, inherited the factory files, records, drawings and tooling, i.e. Andover Norton, escapes me.

Ever heard of the "Modification Introduction Records"? I have them in front of me: "332363 First re-introduction stamping engine number on frame." Before then, if stamped, 850s had an 850F 1.. ... number stamped on the frame, but NOT in chronological order, looking at the production records in our posession (that the NOC does NOT have).

Joe Seifert/Andover Norton
 
ZFD said:
the NOC are possibly the only 'legitimate' source for this info
Click to expand...

Well, I should be surprised. Why a registration authority should believe a club, i.e. an unqualified group of amateurs, rather than a company that decended in direct lineage from the manufacturer, inherited the factory files, records, drawings and tooling, i.e. Andover Norton, escapes me.
Click to expand...

But then, Andover Norton does not offer an official records checking or machine dating service.



ZFD said:
Ever heard of the "Modification Introduction Records"? I have them in front of me: "332363 First re-introduction stamping engine number on frame." Before then, if stamped, 850s had an 850F 1.. ... number stamped on the frame, but NOT in chronological order, looking at the production records in our posession (that the NOC does NOT have).
Click to expand...

Why does AN appear reluctant to offer this additional record information to the NOC or VMCC?
 
I'm in California and have been fighting the Department of Motor Vehicles since I was 16 (many vehicles but their attitude remains the same). Regarding earlier Nortons (prior to stamping the headstock), the problem has to do with what most people refer to as the VIN plate. The DMV claims this is only a Federal Compliance Plate and is not to be used as the VIN. I have tried to explain but this only works when people are willing to listen. The funny thing is other law enforcement agencies are willing to consider using the plate as the VIN.

The DMV claims all imported vehicles had to comply with Federal Law at time of entry to the USA. In frustration, I once asked how many DMV employees were assigned to the Port of Los Angeles to verify if vehicles actually did comply? Of course, the answer was none!!!
 
When I titled the bike, it required inspection of numbers by a LEO, I relied in the skim over factor and pointed to the steering neck, the bright red plate was noted and that's it. End of story.
 
But then, Andover Norton does not offer an official records checking or machine dating service.
Click to expand...

Members of this forum have asked me about their bikes and I have answered their questions when I could. The films and books are currently in my German firm Norton Motors GmbH, so not with Andover Norton- we simply don't have the staff/time to answer the questions there. After Nick retires in March this may be something I can assign to him as a part-timer.

Why we should offer internal information we own to the VMCC (distributor of pirate parts for Nortons- see their catalogue even listing the parts under Wassell numbers) or the NOC (ditto, but listing them under Norton part numbers) I would like to hear your reasons for.
 
L.A.B. said:
But then, Andover Norton does not offer an official records checking or machine dating service.
Click to expand...

The data sheets I got from Joe for four of my bikes look sufficiently official and state in a legally sustainable - at least in Germany - matter the date of manufacture plus some important technical data. The lady at our DMV equivalent StVA loved them and getting them from NMG was not really difficult. One email with the VINs and a few days later the papers arrived together with a very moderate invoice for the service, I can't even remember how much it was. I've heard rumours there is a connection between NMG and AN. :wink:

My experience with the NOC regarding their dating service has been relatively fruitless in comparison which in the end was one of the reasons to end my NOC membership.


Tim
 
ZFD said:
But then, Andover Norton does not offer an official records checking or machine dating service.
Click to expand...

Members of this forum have asked me about their bikes and I have answered their questions when I could.
Click to expand...

Well, yes, but information offered on a casual basis is hardly the same thing,


ZFD said:
Why we should offer internal information we own to the VMCC (distributor of pirate parts for Nortons- see their catalogue even listing the parts under Wassell numbers) or the NOC (ditto, but listing them under Norton part numbers) I would like to hear your reasons for.
Click to expand...

I guessed that would be the answer-all down to money in the end, which is a shame, as I'm sure those records would be a great benefit to Commando owners and the Norton community. :(
 
L.A.B. said:
I guessed that would be the answer-all down to money in the end, which is a shame, as I'm sure those records would be a great benefit to Commando owners and the Norton community. :(
Click to expand...

Sorry, but it would be new to me that the NOC offers this kind of data free and unconditionally.



Tim
 
Tintin said:
L.A.B. said:
I guessed that would be the answer-all down to money in the end, which is a shame, as I'm sure those records would be a great benefit to Commando owners and the Norton community. :(
Click to expand...

Sorry, but it would be new to me that the NOC offers this kind of data free and unconditionally.
Click to expand...

I didn't say otherwise.

But, why withhold these records when they would be of such great value to the Norton community?
 
could it because Andover Norton is a company , trying to make business ? Joe is a passionnate man but you can not ask him to give what he legitimaly owns for free.
 
L.A.B. said:
But, why withhold these records when they would be of such great value to the Norton community?
Click to expand...

I can't exactly follow what you mean by withhold. Again, I send him an email and got a nice document for each bike within a few days for what I recall a fair handling charge. The German TÜV runs a data sheet service as well and the ask 105€ for a sheet (which for obvious reasons can't contain the date of manufacture and therefore is not specific for each bike). I can't recall how much Joe asked but it was far less than that.


Tim
 
Tintin said:
L.A.B. said:
But, why withhold these records when they would be of such great value to the Norton community?
Click to expand...

I can't exactly follow what you mean by withhold.
Click to expand...

Perhaps 'withhold' is not quite an accurate description, although it can mean to "hold back", "restrain or refrain from giving" which seems applicable in this case as AN does not openly advertise the fact, it is only done on an impromptu basis for the relatively few people who happen to know AN has these records.
 
L.A.B. said:
kommando said:
The factory was preparing in advance for the MK3 and introduced the extra frame number on the MK2 but continued the practice of stamping the plate with the engine number.
Click to expand...

The non-matching "F1" frame numbers appeared on the 850 Mk1 models from sometime around mid-'73 so I must admit, I fail to see how this was somehow "preparing in advance for the Mk3"?
Preparing what in advance exactly?
Click to expand...


There is no record of what really happened, the NOC do not know as they referred a fellow MK2a owner to me as they know my bike matched his in having a frame number stamped on the frame and the engine number stamped on the red plate and he needed pics of mine to convince the DVLA it was valid, it helped that my V5 uses the frame number not the plate number which proved they were original.

I did work at Austin Rover for 10 years in the dept that organised engineering changes, model year changes and attempted to control the VIN number stamping :roll: .

A major change like the MK3 with its large number of part changes and also changes such as the frame identification would have been worked out well in advance, any changes that could be introduced early were identified, as running changes are simple compared to model year changes. This would have included the frame stamps, the factory would need to be fully loaded with frames with the stamps already on prior to the change so its possible someone decided the earlier the better otherwise painted unstamped frames would require stripping , stamping and then repainting if they went into MK3's.
 
kommando said:
I did work at Austin Rover for 10 years in the dept that organised engineering changes, model year changes and attempted to control the VIN number stamping
Click to expand...

In the early '70's VIN number system for motorcycles was still several years away, and no Commando produced at that time had what could be described as a VIN number so I fail to see what this has to do with VIN numbers?


kommando said:
A major change like the MK3 with its large number of part changes and also changes such as the frame identification would have been worked out well in advance, any changes that could be introduced early were identified, as running changes are simple compared to model year changes.
Click to expand...

The factory carrying 18+ months worth of frame stock? Sorry, but that makes no sense to me whatsoever. I don't know how many frames were sent from Verlicchi at a time, but Commando frames supplied by Reynolds were usually delivered every week.

kommando said:
This would have included the frame stamps, the factory would need to be fully loaded with frames with the stamps already on prior to the change so its possible someone decided the earlier the better otherwise painted unstamped frames would require stripping , stamping and then repainting if they went into MK3's.
Click to expand...

There was no specific frame number marking for the Mk3. It was stamped *850*F1xxxxx* same as any other 850 model with an F1 prefix frame number, later on, the Mk3 frame number 6 digit stamp matched the plate/engine number. The 850 Mk3 frame is different to 850 Mk1/1A and Mk2/2A frames so they couldn't have been used as Mk3 frames unless they were reworked.
 
Numbers stamped to headstock


VIN numbers were introduced later but the stamping of engine numbers and frame numbers still needed controlling before VIN numbers were introduced, they ended up on legal docs after all.

Numbers stamped to headstock


I am not suggesting 18 months of stock but the factory would have needed a weeks or so of stock of frames plus all the work in progress, at the factory I worked at some cars were up to 6 weeks old by the time they left due to rectification etc

Numbers stamped to headstock


Correct but if you needed to get people working to a new practise well in advance you may do that, when you have seen cars with duplicate VINs, 3 door cars with 5 door VINs and Mini's with Metro VINs you understand anything can happen and try to minimse it especially as the Dept of Transport can visit and check.
 
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