Numbers stamped to headstock

kommando said:

VIN numbers were introduced later but the stamping of engine numbers and frame numbers still needed controlling before VIN numbers were introduced, they ended up on legal docs after all.

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Agreed, but all a motorcycle needed at that time was a serial number, and surely that's why the headstock plate was there, otherwise what was the point of having the headstock plate?

kommando said:

I am not suggesting 18 months of stock but the factory would have needed a weeks or so of stock of frames plus all the work in progress, at the factory I worked at some cars were up to 6 weeks old by the time they left due to rectification etc

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The 850 frames especially the Mk3 frame are/is essentially different (regardless of any headstock number) so they can't be mixed up, so again, I fail to see how it is anything to do with work in progress or rectification of the Mk3 models when the system of frame numbering was introduced some 18 months beforehand.

LAB,

Just to let you see my side of the matter- the VMCC is a Limited Company masquerading as a club. In fact a commercial competitor of Andover Norton selling imitations of what we see ourselves as the rightful producers and distributors of. Why I should be helping a commercial competitor, masquerading as a club or otherwise, I do not see.

To a certain extent this also applies to the NOC. The NOC does nothing for us, quite the opposite in fact through selling copy parts.

I pay my NOC membership fees (and have done for 35 years), so do two other members of the current Andover Norton management team out of their private pockets, just like any other NOC member. Therefore I don't think we owe that club anything, either.

As I said- at the moment we simply don't have the manpower to offer a dating service, but we will eventually do that. I will let everybody know when. At the moment, due to our move, we are far behind with shipping out orders. That is far more important than to satisfy the curiosity of a Norton owner. The majority of questions I have answered were asked to know more about a particular bike, not to get help for a registration document.

Joe/Andover Norton

ZFD said:

To a certain extent this also applies to the NOC. The NOC does nothing for us, quite the opposite in fact through selling copy parts.

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Well, the NOC and VMCC were just suggestions.

ZFD said:

As I said- at the moment we simply don't have the manpower to offer a dating service, but we will eventually do that. I will let everybody know when. At the moment, due to our move, we are far behind with shipping out orders. That is far more important than to satisfy the curiosity of a Norton owner. The majority of questions I have answered were asked to know more about a particular bike, not to get help for a registration document.

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That's more encouraging news.

If AN want to set up a service and charge for the information then that's fair enough, as that would at least be preferable to the records shut away somewhere, doing nothing.

I have an idea that there is a diference between the US understanding of a VIN number and that in the UK. I don't recall the term 'VIN' being used in the UK prior to the introduction of the standardised 17-digit VIN number. Prior to 1981, we simply referred to 'Frame Number' or, in the case of cars etc., 'Chassis Number'.

The situation prior to the 1980s with UK motorcycles was that in theory at least, any number of manufacturers could use the same number sequence. Pre-war, this clearly happened except where model prefixes were used.

It is strange that at some point, Woolwich became lazy and discontinued the practice of the last sixty-plus years and stopped physically stamping the number on the frame. They also stopped using a model code identifier for the frame, although it continued on the engine numbers for a while. This was an invitation to fiddling and theft and I can't understand why the authorities let them get away with it.

The implication is that the number on the headstock plate was indeed the 'frame number'. Presumably in the US they called it the 'VIN' ?

At some point, I wonder if under pressure from the US who already had a 10-digit VIN system, Norton began to stamp a....10 digit ...number on the frame. This number would have had to be unique to Norton and the *850*F prefix would have ensured this.

It is clear from the copy UK vehicle registration applications provided with new motorcyles by Norton (many of which are held by the VMCC), that Nortons regarded the number stamped on the frame as the frame (or VIN) number , where it differed from the engine number as this was the number that they provided to the authorities. Once the 10-digit number was used on the frames, the number stamped on the red plate ceased to be the VIN number and confirmed only that the engine number fitted met US standards (Emission, noise and suppression ?) The number stamped on the frame is there for a reason and it is not simply a factory build identifier.

I know that this system sometimes went wrong, even in the UK and after querying matters with Norton in the early 1980s, my vehicle docs were amended to 'matching' numbers per the red plate and it was only when the frame was blasted that the *850*F1 number turned up again, precisely as the original paperwork. It was quite a job getting that lot sorted out.

NENO has been around for a long time....we even predate the formation of INOA . We in NENO help members educate the motor vehicle personel with correctly identifying nortons, mainly commando.Where has norton been since the late 70's? ...through many different owners hands huh? Heck I'm a newbe since I've only been in our club since 1988. Owned my first commando in 1971.

We have 50 states in this country which have their own rules and you will not get a uniform interpretation even within one state.

Retorically....... did the earlier bikes NOT have a vin because the frame was not stamped. We consider the VIN to be the red plate/ engine #/transmission #. The precedence is cleary that the red plate is used before the existance of the supplimental late model frame stampings.

A printout of my VIN samples is by no means any kind of official..... but has helped even with the police inspection process ...since it is 3rd party and it makes you look like you're just not trying to scam DMV or the cops. I have never had trouble getting the DMV to accpet the numbers. YRMV

I also suggest that you accept any number that will get you on the road. It's not worth a big fight. I/we will know what your bike VIN is, even it the state does not have a clue.

79x100 said:

At some point, I wonder if under pressure from the US who already had a 10-digit VIN system, Norton began to stamp a....10 digit ...number on the frame. This number would have had to be unique to Norton and the *850*F prefix would have ensured this.

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From mid-75, the factory actually dropped the 'F(1)' prefix on Mk3s and started using the 6-digit engine/plate number, so the frame number then became 9 digits (if '850' is included) which, surely, they would not have done if a 10 digit number had been necessary? 'Matching number' frame Mk3s were certainly sent to the US and not just sold on the domestic market.
I think the frame numbering was probably Norton's own system and nothing to do with any outside influence, but only used as a means of keeping track of the frames which were being sourced from two different suppliers. I remember Les Emery telling me the 'F1' frames were the ones supplied by Verlicchi, however previous 'Frame' discussions on the forum has thrown some doubt on that theory.

ZFD said:

That is far more important than to satisfy the curiosity of a Norton owner. The majority of questions I have answered were asked to know more about a particular bike, not to get help for a registration document.
Joe/Andover Norton

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I sold one of my Matchless singles and have another one (maybe) pending sale. It seems now that "matching numbers" are becoming a big deal to prospective buyers. I went to the AJSMOC Machine Dating officer and was able to get a fancy certificate as well as a letter describing each bike - even down to which distributor it was sold to and the name of the person who road tested it after it was built. Interesting stuff, to me anyway. The Matchlesses had separate serial numbers for frame, engine and transmission. I wish I had done this years ago. The service is available to AJSMOC club members for somewhere around $20-25 as I remember. I might add that they have the records for the Norton-Matchless hybrids also, so this may be of some interest to this group. Anyway there is more to it than just idle curiosity by owners. It is sad that a club spares scheme is considered competition to AN. These clubs have been forced into a structured "business" by economics and also liability insurance requirements, not really by choice. Don't know a thing about VMCC. It is bad enough that there are two "international" Norton clubs even though they seem to get along very well with each other.

Ah well, LAB, it was an idea...I've no particular axe to grind. I do have the impression though that with staff turnover towards the end, things were forgotten as fast as they were dreamed up.

Nevetheless, based on what I've seen at the VMCC (UK Vehicle licence applications categorised by frame number), the majority of UK Commandos with a number stamped on the frame are registered on that number and not on the 'duplicate engine number' stamped on the headstock plate...Whether anyone told the chaps at NV America is another question, but there is no doubt in my mind that the factory 'used' the stamped frame number in some way when referring to completed motorcycles.

I wonder if Joe can shed any more light on that ?

Professionally I'm in corporate sales. Of course it has to make sense to to Joe and his commercial enterprise, but the value proposition to provide the information is to increase the total available market (TAM) demand for classic Commando parts. By getting more old Commandos registered and in use it creates more demand by wearing out parts.

batrider said:

ZFD said:

That is far more important than to satisfy the curiosity of a Norton owner. The majority of questions I have answered were asked to know more about a particular bike, not to get help for a registration document.
Joe/Andover Norton

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It is sad that a club spares scheme is considered competition to AN. These clubs have been forced into a structured "business" by economics and also liability insurance requirements, not really by choice. Don't know a thing about VMCC. It is bad enough that there are two "international" Norton clubs even though they seem to get along very well with each other.

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I don't really have a clear view anymore on how the NOC sources its spares scheme stock but the VMCC has now gone way beyond their previous speciality of friction material for veterans and inflators and now catalogues virtually the full range of Wassell's 'Made in China' pattern universal and counterfeit parts. I'm not surprised that Joe considers them a business rival. Many of the parts that they sell are so 'tacky' that I feel it diminishes the club.

In terms of the old factory records, it is only recently that the world at large has become aware that there were any surviving factory records beyond those handed to Scotland Yard's stolen vehicle squads when NVT ceased trading. It now seems that the later documents were not included and that there were duplicates for some others. Both the VMCC and the NOC have done sterling work in supporting owners through the years that there were no other sources and with the records they have dating back to 1922 (No competion for Andover Norton there, I suspect), they are still providing a service for Norton owners, to many of whom the Commando is but a foot-note in the scheme of things.

Both the VMCC and the NOC have done sterling work in supporting owners through the years that there were no other sources and with the records they have dating back to 1922 (No competion for Andover Norton there, I suspect), they are still providing a service for Norton owners, to many of whom the "Commando is but a foot-note in the scheme of things."[/quote]

Careful with a comment that the Commando is only a "footnote". I can't quote numbers, but assume there are more existing Commandos in the world than all other Norton models combined. That would be an important point for a supplier of replacement parts. I would also have to believe there are a great number of Commandos that could be restored to active duty.

I didn't say I have only the Commando records- I have the full set of microfilms going back tio the 1920s and sales ledgers/despatch records the various clubs don't have from the late Commando era.
So much for the "footnote"!

David, I did qualify with "to many of whom". There were certainly a lot of 'em made. Only the WD16H was probably produced in greater numbers. There is no doubt though that many owners of earlier Nortons have no interest in the Commando and can function quite happily without knowing at which frame number the Mk3 rear brake pedal changed shape (I haven't quite worked that one out yet. I wish I could...)

ZFD said:

I didn't say I have only the Commando records- I have the full set of microfilms going back tio the 1920s and sales ledgers/despatch records the various clubs don't have from the late Commando era.
So much for the "footnote"!

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Joe, I seem to have been misunderstood on that post. I don't regard late Commandos as a footnote. Many Norton owners do, though and in terms of factory records, the VMCC and NOC have provided a service which your predecessors never showed any inclination to do.

...You don't happen to know where the "missing" wartime records are, do you..... 8)

ZFD said:

LAB,

Just to let you see my side of the matter- the VMCC is a Limited Company masquerading as a club. In fact a commercial competitor of Andover Norton selling imitations of what we see ourselves as the rightful producers and distributors of.

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Is this because you own the Norton trademarks? Hmm...

For VMCC, see NOC, Jampot , Ace Classic, VOC, TOC etc etc.

If choice is available to the consumer, then i'm all for it. Quality, service, price and hopefully all with a smile. That's how to get my wallet open!

Is this because you own the Norton trademarks? Hmm...

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Not a very informed question!

I have not owned any Norton trademarks since I sold my part of them to Kenny Dreer in 2002.

I see the Norton spares as "ours", i.e. Andover Nortons, because that is what the company was set up for. Its purpose was to distribute and eventually re-manufacture the genuine Norton parts using tooling and drawings. The company has had these genuine parts re-manufactured using that original tooling and those original drawings since 1978, bar a period in between, when Norton took the spares back from 1982-1991.

If a third party makes Norton parts I see that as pirating our parts. Now understood?

ZFD said:

If a third party makes Norton parts I see that as pirating our parts.

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Without wishing to get into this too deeply (or at all, really) perhaps this question should be asked -
- in the fine print, is there anything that says you have the EXCLUSIVE right to manufacture Norton parts ?
Or is it just the right to put the curly Norton / green globe logo on them. ??

3rd party parts suppliers have been around since before the Romans.
And enshrined in (common) law.....

I for one would add that I am delighted that I can go to my local Dealer and still buy parts in the green globe bags.
As well as other stuff they have. But a total monopoly ...... ???

in the fine print, is there anything that says you have the EXCLUSIVE right to manufacture Norton parts ?
Or is it just the right to put the curly Norton / green globe logo on them. ??
I for one would add that I am delighted that I can go to my local Dealer and still buy parts in the green globe bags.
As well as other stuff they have. But a total monopoly ...... ???

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Let me say it this way: most Norton parts- and I exclude parts from outside sources like bearings and oil filters- have been designed and drawn inside the Norton factory and were their intellectual property. When Andover Norton was set up in 1978 it was given this intellectual property explicitly to look after the Norton owners worldwide. If, then, somebody makes a pirate copy- and more often than not a bad one- of what I consider to be our property I am not amused.

The curly N has nothing to do with it- this is a license traditionally given to Andover Norton by the trademark holder of the day, and Andover Norton can easily survive without it, on the strength of the IP it owns, and on the strength of its history and reputation. We leave the registering and holding of invented trademarks to brand their pirate parts to others. People who buy from us don't buy trademarks but, I hope and strive for, the best parts for their Nortons money can buy, with an after-sales service that makes a point of not swearing at our customers but to be polite and supportive.

Andover Norton is by now one of only two companies left with a direct lineage to Norton Motors Ltd/NVT/Norton Villiers/Norton Motors Ltd Birmingham, and by 11 years the older, the other one being Norton Motors GmbH founded in 1989 as a joint venture between myself and Norton Motors Ltd/Shenstone. From history, as well as the exclusive ownership of the technical drawings, tooling, jigs and fixtures, we derive the right to call Norton spares our business.

Joe Seifert/Andover Norton

Dear Jon,
I am a lawyer and I mean what you have explained.
In Italy we know very well the problems of piracy of trademarks, all of our luxury brands are copied to the far east farmer that causes damage to the economy.
I buy from Andover, as Phil knows, and I feel safe with the original spare parts; but I take into big consideration all news and the upgrades invented primarily by great experts present on this enlightening and indispensable blog.
Though it would be nice to have a service, even for a fee, to trace the exact history of producing their own bike.
For example, one of Commando of mine i bought by an Italian who had bought in England from a Canadian gentleman!!!!!!!!!
I'd be happy to learn more.
Ciao.
Piero

Rohan said:

ZFD said:

If a third party makes Norton parts I see that as pirating our parts.

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Without wishing to get into this too deeply (or at all, really) perhaps this question should be asked -
- in the fine print, is there anything that says you have the EXCLUSIVE right to manufacture Norton parts ?
Or is it just the right to put the curly Norton / green globe logo on them. ??

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European Interlectual Property law protects the legal rights of creators and owners in relation to interllectual creativity. There are 4 main types - patents,trade marks, design rights and copyright.

In terms of Design rights (within Interlectual Property Law), any registered designs in the UK, give the owner exclusive rights for up to 25 years after original design.
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/d-designright.htm

To this extent, anybody can manufacture fit for purpose original Norton parts lawfully.
What they can't do is market and sell those products in a manner that may infringe ongoing Trademarks, which remain the property of the Trademark owner.
If you so wished, you could manufacture yourself a whole range of 'Rohan' parts 'to service/direct replacement for' Norton etc , but you can't use the licensed marks used by Andover Norton/Norvil as they have paid for the licence to do.

So, no , AN certainly do not have the EXCLUSIVE rights to manufacture parts to fitted to original Norton motorcycles.