Norvil ebay listing ?

This is the listing

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4352-CRANKCAS ... SwjDZYc2db

The description has the following

NO NUMBERS BECAUSE NUMBERS TRANSFERED TO A MK3 CASE

I thought tampering with numbers was not allowed.

it isn't illegal to chisel numbers off cases, but it tends to indicate something illegal may be going on, and those cases are worth about the same as stolen ones

I don't know if it illegal to remove casting or stamped numbers on parts like these, but VIN's on frames or body shell's that is totally illegal. If someone was to re-stamp an incorrect number then that probably consists of fraud. If the seller is not missrepresenting it or claiming it is something it's not, then I think it's probably not illegal. I would be leary to purchase something that has had numbers removed unless you have a good repore w/ the seller and check with your local authority first to see if they would deem it to be illegal. Just my two cents as I have encountered this exact same thing numorus times in the car restoration community. Most people can spot a re-stamp or fraudulent part pretty easily, so most times there has been fore warning before it even gets too much attention.

I think in the UK the VIN number on the frame is deemed to identify the vehicle and you can put any engine (or engine number) you like in the machine, however if you change the numbers on a different case and then sell it as a matching numbers bike, you are guilty of deception.

dave M said:

I think in the UK the VIN number on the frame is deemed to identify the vehicle and you can put any engine (or engine number) you like in the machine, however if you change the numbers on a different case and then sell it as a matching numbers bike, you are guilty of deception.

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Exactly.

I don't know how it is now, but when I was 'in the business' (Jap Rice Rockets) 25 years ago there was a booming trade in frames with log books (V5s), such that a completely wrecked bike was worth big bucks because it had the identity. A £500 retail frame would fetch £1500 + with the V5.
There was no requirement to declare if a vehicle had previously been subject to an insurance write-off back then.
Most folks would be looking at the VIN to verify it matched the log book, which did match and was generally kosher, but the real giveaway was looking at the engine number, which almost always wasn't. A customer brought a bike to me which he'd bought from a 'reputable dealer' asking my view and I pointed out the engine number had been tampered with. I suggested he return it, which he did. The bike they swapped it with also had a tampered engine number...

dave M said:

I think in the UK the VIN number on the frame is deemed to identify the vehicle and you can put any engine (or engine number) you like in the machine, however if you change the numbers on a different case and then sell it as a matching numbers bike, you are guilty of deception.

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You sure about this?

When you buy a new set of crankcases or even a new frame, it comes without numbers. This is because they are replacement parts, not parts from which you are supposed to build a new bike.

My understanding is that you are actually supposed to re-use your old numbers, by law.

So you could have a bike with a brand new frame and brand new cases and they would still 'match'.

The problem is that the phrase 'matching numbers' has taken on a meaning that is more than the words, we take it to mean 'this machine has the original frame and cases that it left the factory with'.

If someone sold a machine with new cases AND said that, then they would clearly be guilty of deception.

But someone selling a machine with new cases, or new frame, or both, carrying the original numbers is, I believe, acting exactly according to the law.

I am not a lawyer so couldn't say with 100% certainty, but I think if you damage the frame so badly that it needs replacement you are looking at a new registration. If you are able to keep the section of frame that has the vin number attached then you can still claim it's the same vehicle but I don't think so otherwise. We are obviously in an enviable position with Commandos because the VIN number is an a plate that can be riveted on a new frame and we can say hand on heart that we still have the essence of the original bike, of course we could thereafter freshen things up with a new data plate - Norvil will supply you one if you send the old one back as proof!!! You will end up like the guy in Only Fools and Horse who had his broom for 25 years during which time it has had 8 new handles and 5 new heads.

I wouldn't touch anything he sells with a barge pole

dave M said:

I am not a lawyer so couldn't say with 100% certainty, but I think if you damage the frame so badly that it needs replacement you are looking at a new registration. If you are able to keep the section of frame that has the vin number attached then you can still claim it's the same vehicle but I don't think so otherwise. We are obviously in an enviable position with Commandos because the VIN number is an a plate that can be riveted on a new frame and we can say hand on heart that we still have the essence of the original bike, of course we could thereafter freshen things up with a new data plate - Norvil will supply you one if you send the old one back as proof!!! You will end up like the guy in Only Fools and Horse who had his broom for 25 years during which time it has had 8 new handles and 5 new heads.

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Doesn't make sense Dave. Think about it, your old Commando frame is damaged, maybe not even crash damage, maybe it's rusted through the bottom tubes or, or cracked through fatigue, or something.

You decide to buy a nice new frame from Andover Norton. Nothing dodgy going on at all... an 'original' new Norton frame for an original old Norton.

Then you're supposed to get a new registration? How's that gonna work? Does the 'old' bike now need to pass new laws etc?!

It's the same in the car world, you can buy brand new shells for your E Type Jag if you want to (and can afford it).

Buying a new frame or shell does not mean the original vehicle loses its identity. The identity is maintained. And that means the numbers and / or VIN plate have to be retained and put on the new frame.

If I recall correctly, you are required by law to scrap the old frame though. So it should not be possible for it to later re appear on the market complete with its 'old' identity.

I can not contribute to the "legality" of your british laws. However as to a possible motivation for the original 850 case # going to a MKIII case!!!

Here in the US, I have personally witnessed a regular 850 commando with above the normal 325xxx numbers, which are supposed to be reserved for E-start. Having studied and very closely scrutinized the VIN plate, engine case, and trans marking for over 25 years, I was unable to detect any attempt at fraud on this bike. It clearly was not a MKIII in any way but the numbers were in the normal MKIII range.
I think this bike will be at the INOA rally in july. come see me and I'll point it out.

In a similar but very rare situation, the norvil ebay cases may be the result of of trying to "create" a MKIII out of a similar factory anomaly situation.

Yes it is s Norvil listing, under his wifes name, there are other sites run by the same company on Ebad under different names - just check the VAT number, it's the same.

Changing an engine in vehicle has changed recently and it's a pain - see below, as yet there has been no DVLA guidance to the classic owners so argue on this point if challenged. Modern vehicle replacement engines come with a number, so the link below is straightforward. So now is it not only important in the UK to either buy matching numbers , or if a basket case project with V5 that the numbers on the parts you have are actually on the V5 - if not you are taking one hell of a risk. Age related plates are not so easy to obtain, and the DVLA do not just issue a modern number or Q plate instead.

https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-detai ... ce-to-give

kind of a similar story so i think i will share. i have a 74 commando, numbers match on my bike but for some reason, the old title had the vin number listed as the model of bike, and the frame number (the one stamped on the frame that matches nothing else) listed as the vin on the title. i was simply explaining to the Oklahoma Tax Agency (worst motor vehicle authority on the planet), that it looked to me liked the vin was misplaced. they told me that i was wrong and that i needed to have my bike inspected and cleared for sale from the original state. i take it on appeal to the state to get the title corrected and was asked to come in to the oklahoma office so it could be inspected. she saw the riveted plate and was pissed. she was mad for wasting her time and told me "WHY DONT YOU JUST GET A SHOP TO MAKE YOU NEW VIN PLATES TO MATCH THE TITLE!" i referred her to the U.S.C. statute which indicated that vin tampering is a federal crime and she scoffed at me that no one would even notice. this was a state run tag agency... and the tax authority flat out refused to correct the title. i just want my damn numbers to match on all three items, is that so much to ask? Im moving so i called the Texas office, and they said they would happily correct the discrepancy for a corrected title fee. ridiculous

Interesting reading, what happens if you blow up your engine and just have to replace it? With a new or used engine number? This is not a problem at all here in Sweden, at the yearly control they never check the engine number. Way back I blew up my 750 engine, replaced it with an 850, nobody cared. The title is locked to the frame number, that´s all.
Tommy

Not a problem here either, buy new and transfer the number, scrap old cases. Unwise to sell them with a number on, if re-used and then caught both vehicles will be off the road.