Norton IoM TT

Rohan,
Until the 961 gets raced, the only people who will buy it will be old idiots like ourselves who love the nostalgia trip. I believe more people buy watercooled four valve Ducatis than ever buy Paul Smart Replicas, yet to my eyes the Paul Smart bike is much more attractive. For Norton to go off and start racing a Spondon framed Aprilia motored bike, would be pretty stupid. How much do you believe that would increase sales of the 961 ? And if they decided to sell clones of their race bike, they would then be competing directly with Aprilia and the Japanese. I suggest it is 'a bridge too far' .

I suggest for Norton and their 961, something like the Lansdowne Series with good promotion, and a following of enthusiasts could be a really good thing for sales. The truth of the matter is that nobody needs a superbike on the road which will do 300 KPH. MotoGP and the World Superbike series don't actually mean much in real terms even though the technology spin-off might be excellent - where are they going ? If you only want to play, the 961 would be excellent.

acotrel said:

For Norton to go off and start racing a Spondon framed Aprilia motored bike, would be pretty stupid. How much do you believe that would increase sales of the 961 ?

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There is talk on Nortons website that race testing their Spondon framed Aprilia is working towards their new design of roadbike ?
Since nothing about the 961 is oriented to racing (?), this would seem a more sensible approach if they are actually thinking of producing a true performance bike.
Getting the chassis and suspension and braking up to snuff first seems like a particularly good idea.

In a race class against two valve air cooled Ducatis, Triumphs, BMWs and Guzzis, the 961 would be excellent. I would really love to be doing that. It would actually have some sense to it. There is not much thrill in 'point and squirt' racing.

If the 961 isn't designed or built as a race engine, what do we know about how they are going to go in racing. ??
I've never ever seen a report of one being ridden fast ?

First test is to get them on the autobahn, and see how far they go flat out.
If they've done 50 laps of Europe by next weekend (not this weekend) maybe they are OK ?

Rohan, if the 961 engine won't stand up under race conditions, it is not worth marketing in a road bike. There are only two justifications for motor racing - having fun - and 'improving the breed'. Until the 961 gets raced, even if I had the money and they were readily available, I would never buy one. If you look back a bit - when the Kawasaki KR250s first came to Australia, two of them stopped in a production race - the first models had crankcase problems. The same thing happened to the 1000cc Honda CBX. Both of those bikes were rectified, however if you had bought the first models, you had a lemon. If Norton sells thousands of 961s and never race them, if they start failing after 2000 miles, it would destroy the company.

What you find when you race a bike, is that for the first five meetings, bits keep breaking and falling off. It doesn't matter how well you've initially prepared the bike. After you've fixed all the problems, the bike is really great. The 961 looks great, do you think that if you push it around hundreds of bends in dozens of races, that the frame might crack?

Back in the 70s I saw a 450 Ducati at a race meeting Phillip Island with post-it notes all over it showing the failures the owner had experienced. Easy to laugh, if you are not footing the bills.

acotrel said:

if the 961 engine won't stand up under race conditions, it is not worth marketing in a road bike.

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When did this become part of the sales contract.... ???

Can recall reading when the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers, USA) took half a dozen cars out of new showrooms in the 1950s, ran them in on the road and then put them on a dyno. Ran them flat out, and they lasted an average of about 7 minutes. The best one didn't do double that.

Road vehicle engines rarely stand up to full throttle work, even these days, although they are improving.
Some more than others.
Try this while its under warranty, could be expensive otherwise !?!

Can't recall reading anywhere that that test has been repeated in recent days ?
Lot of engines have failed in proddy bike racing over the years.
Some of these 600 road bikes have done fairly well, lately.
Superstock 600 in particular...

Rohan,
'When did this become part of the sales contract.... ???

'Grab the money and run?'
Quality management is about repeat business.

I used to work in a couple of engineering factories. One made aircraft, the other hardware. The first was fairly decent but was sold off when flutter caused the tail to fall of a prototype killing the test pilot, and making the co-pilot quadriplegic. That factory is now operated by Boeing. The second operated under the old British system, 1000 employees in five levels of trades people, and five technical levels above that. You'd heard the story of the plank used to steady the mill while the manx heads were machined, which was lost when the factory moved? Well that was us ! Our guys could never identify a prototype, and test it to destruction. The concept of 'configuration management' was unknown. Every item in a production batch was significantly different from the next. From inside the system, changing it was extremely difficult. I won't outline my role to you, however a while after I left, the factory disappeared up it's own fundamental orifice. That is why we now buy most of our military hardware from the US.

Rohan said:

If the 961 isn't designed or built as a race engine, what do we know about how they are going to go in racing. ??
I've never ever seen a report of one being ridden fast ?

First test is to get them on the autobahn, and see how far they go flat out.
If they've done 50 laps of Europe by next weekend (not this weekend) maybe they are OK ?

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They did bring a 961 over and run it in a production class at Bonneville in 2010 with Alan Cathcart riding. He made 3 or 4 runs at 129.xxx mph. Not much of a test sample, but better than nothing.

Ken

lcrken said:

They did bring a 961 over and run it in a production class at Bonneville in 2010 with Alan Cathcart riding. He made 3 or 4 runs at 129.xxx mph. Not much of a test sample, but better than nothing.

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Thanks Ken.
The criticism of the early Commandos was that when they got over on the autobahns in fast company,
they didn't hold up too well after a good few miles, day in day out.
'3 or 4 fast runs' barely meets that test criteria ??

More than a few folks commented that a few kg of extra metal in the orig Commando engine/gearbox could have made all the difference
- extra strength where it was needed, extra width in all the gasket/mating surfaces.
Why skimp on the weight when it is really needed ??

Not frothing or not superheating the oil goes for a long way in race engines stamina too.
Thats where most non-race engines fall down ??, pumping froth into the big end bearings does nothing for longevity...

acotrel said:

I used to work in a couple of engineering factories. One made aircraft, the other hardware.

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Don't know what this has to do with 961 construction or reliability or raceworthyness ??

And you have told this story before.
As was mentioned back then, your summary of events was a little brief/ inadequate ?
Nomad made a hundred+ aircraft after that event you described, which was trying to do something not in a std aircraft. ?
And Nomad still exist today, amid talk of resuming production, when you search on the net ?

Most of the Nomads were mothballed at Oakey in NSW. I believe a few were flown in New Guinea. One thing which made the project difficult was the original design had a hinged tail section so that helicopter blades could be carried in Vietnam. The design which crashed was the uprated version. The whole project was pretty much stillborn, and I don't believe it would be possible to resume production. The bonding facility is in the hands of Boeing , and the main assembly workshop is finished and the skilled fitters long gone. That aircraft factory was the best engineering establishment we had in Australia. The second factory I mentioned was abysmal, it was the complete British system transplanted to a warmer climate. All the facets were there which destroyed the British motorcycle industry, and they had the same effect over the space of about thirty years. It is difficult to believe, however both of those factories were under the same governance. One was great, the other was crap.
When I read about Bert Hopwood, Val Page and Edward Turner, I know exactly what is meant - I watched it happen in our factories, even if the product was slightly different. It is simply arrogant bloody stupidity at its worst. The worst thing is that when you are near it, you cannot change the outcome.

Sounds Familiar . Bribary & Coruption go a long way back , politically .



http://smh.drive.com.au/after-40-years- ... 2ovl5.html

"What you find when you race a bike, is that for the first five meetings, bits keep breaking and falling off. It doesn't matter how well you've initially prepared the bike. After you've fixed all the problems, the bike is really great. "

Id agree with that - except in my case it was about the first 25 meetings !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-((


Slow learner !

I think I was lucky with my Seeley 850. I built it after racing my nasty Triumph for 12 years , so I was able to go straight to most of the potential problems. I still had the experience where the steering geometry was wrong, and the bike stood up under brakes and nearly decked both myself during a race and a friend previously. Norton must have done its market research on the 961 before it was built. I wonder who the intended customers might be?