Nikasil coated aluminum Norton cylinders

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jseng1

jseng1

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I think there was a forum member in Europe who has successfully Coated his all aluminum Norton cylinders with Nikasil (no cast iron). They may have been Maney cylinders with aluminum liners. If anyone has solid info on this or know who it was - please speak up.
 
No solid info I'm afraid, but Steve Maney has tried them at some point. I mentioned to him that I would like some. He said they were more trouble than they were worth. BMW didn't seem to have any problems with them on Airheads though.
 
Matchless said:
BMW didn't seem to have any problems with them on Airheads though.
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That's because there was no issue of the limited space between mated cylinders.
 
And the fact that BMW and Harley Ferguson cylinders are relatively symmetrical and allow even heating.
 
Yes, the symmetrical cooling of the HD and BMW cylinders may have something to do with it. Even the Yamaha XS engine which Junkyard Dog races with aluminum sleeves and Nikasil coating has a cam chain tunnel between the barrels so should be oil cooled.

Jim Comstock tried them and I don't recall hearing about any distortion issues, only cost to benefit but I don't recall Jim stating what clearances he ran.

From John Ellis's experience it sounds like the big advantage is being able to close up piston skirt to cylinder wall clearance.

Just my humble opinion but distortion may or may not be an issue with aluminum sleeves in aluminum Norton barrels. Who is ready to experiment? :D
 
So what's the problem with uneven spacing. Does this cause the coating to fail? Triples Rule make T120 & T140 barrels with Nikasil coating. I haven't heard of any of these failing.
 
Dances with Shrapnel said:
Yes, the symmetrical cooling of the HD and BMW cylinders may have something to do with it. Even the Yamaha XS engine which Junkyard Dog races with aluminum sleeves and Nikasil coating has a cam chain tunnel between the barrels so should be oil cooled.

Jim Comstock tried them and I don't recall hearing about any distortion issues, only cost to benefit but I don't recall Jim stating what clearances he ran.

From John Ellis's experience it sounds like the big advantage is being able to close up piston skirt to cylinder wall clearance.

Just my humble opinion but distortion may or may not be an issue with aluminum sleeves in aluminum Norton barrels. Who is ready to experiment? :D
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I have tried them on my Norton racebike. I used a set of cylinders from Ken C. and installed cast aluminum sleeves. I tried a few different methods of clamping them in torque plates for the hone and never did get them to stay round.
The area between the bores just ran too hot and I ended up with rings not touching the bore in 1 inch wide strips fore and aft of the center when the bike was run . After 3 attempts I gave up and went back to iron liners. Jim
 
Thanks Jim. Good stuff.

What skirt to barrel clearance did you run and were they cast or forged Pistons?

What bore size did you try it on. Do you think a thicker liner wall would have helped much?
 
Dances with Shrapnel said:
Thanks Jim. Good stuff.

What skirt to barrel clearance did you run and were they cast or forged Pistons?

What bore size did you try it on. Do you think a thicker liner wall would have helped much?
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I was using 73mm bore with 5mm wall thickness. [as thick as I could go and still have a little air space between the bores.]

I was using JE forged pistons at .035 clearance. [down from .006 with iron liners]. Jim
 
Taking it one step further, if an aluminum barrel were made of the appropriate alloy to receive Nikasil, do you think that it would solve or greatly reduce the distortion. Intuition tells me it would reduce it to some degree but I would like your take on it.
 
Dances with Shrapnel said:
Taking it one step further, if an aluminum barrel were made of the appropriate alloy to receive Nikasil, do you think that it would solve or greatly reduce the distortion. Intuition tells me it would reduce it to some degree but I would like your take on it.
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It would have to be a cast aluminum barrel- preferably a356. Steve Maney tried it but it didn't work out so well. He had the same problem I did.

I wouldn't say it can't be done -but I haven't seen it done successfully on Norton yet . Jim
 
marinatlas said:
Hi, not clearly Nikasil, but alloy jugs related........

http://www.nortonownersclub.org/noc-cha ... /419723705
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Yes, the alloy barrels do distort the bore - even with iron liners.

But - if they are honed with torque plates in place -the distortion is not bad enough to prevent using them -although I generally prefer iron barrels for long life on the street.

Honing the aluminum barrels without a torque plate is a sure recipe for scuffed pistons.

Undercutting the through bolts is something I have wanted to try. I suspect it could help control the distortion. Simply tossing the Maney supplied through bolts in the bin and using the OEM bolts with there long threaded section has been proven to help control the distortion in the alloy barrels.

I have been using undercut head bolts on my bike for the past year and it has made a major improvement in head gasket sealing. And, the head bolts no longer come loose.

I intend on undercutting the barrel bolts on the short stroke race engine I am working on. Jim
 
I emailed Steve Maney a couple days ago asking him about Nikasil coated alum sleeves. His reply was that I would need HE30 aluminium liners then coat them with Nikasil then you will need compatible rings. He said it wasn't worth the cost. I emailed him again asking about distortion and blow by when he tried it. His answer was that there was no distortion or blow by.

I then emailed Dave at LA sleeve about costs. His answer was that the cost for sleeving would probably be around $700 for sleeves and installation. Another $485 for Nikasil.

I like to collect info before I embark on a project and weigh it out before I make a decision. I never take one persons advice. I have found that everyone has a natural bias and that experts on both sides will disagree. I have had to find solutions to problems that others have not and sometimes these solutions go unrecognized by some (no matter how long or how well they work) which is disappointing. But the Alum Nikasil cylinder problem looks like a hairy one and very expensive. There are no successful reports of Aluminum Nikasil cylinders for Nortons. The proven solution for Alum Cylinders are the Austentic liners which would be affordable if some vendor/manufacture would make them in quantity. Everyone agrees that tighter clearances are beneficial provided everything stays round and there are no seizures. Austentic iron liners exist but are not readily available for Nortons and that's a shame.

What about the Aluminum/Nikasil M.A.P. cylinders? Does anyone have any experience with them?
 
jseng1 said:
I emailed Steve Maney a couple days ago asking him about Nikasil coated alum sleeves. His reply was that I would need HE30 aluminium liners then coat them with Nikasil then you will need compatible rings. He said it wasn't worth the cost. I emailed him again asking about distortion and blow by when he tried it. His answer was that there was no distortion or blow by.

I then emailed Dave at LA sleeve about costs. His answer was that the cost for sleeving would probably be around $700 for sleeves and installation. Another $485 for Nikasil.

I like to collect info before I embark on a project and weigh it out before I make a decision. I never take one persons advice. I have found that everyone has a natural bias and that experts on both sides will disagree. I have had to find solutions to problems that others have not and sometimes these solutions go unrecognized by some (no matter how long or how well they work) which is disappointing. But the Alum Nikasil cylinder problem looks like a hairy one and very expensive. There are no successful reports of Aluminum Nikasil cylinders for Nortons. The proven solution for Alum Cylinders are the Austentic liners which would be affordable if some vendor/manufacture would make them in quantity. Everyone agrees that tighter clearances are beneficial provided everything stays round and there are no seizures. Austentic iron liners exist but are not readily available for Nortons and that's a shame.

What about the Aluminum/Nikasil M.A.P. cylinders? Does anyone have any experience with them?
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I have no experience with the MAP cylinders. Last time I checked they were still off in the future.

I have had experience with the Maney Nikasil barrels.

I have one pair of 73mm spun cast aluminum liners left if someone want to experiment. They cost about $400.00. Jim
 
Langcourts in the UK and US will Nikilsil coat steel lined cylinders like on my early 70s BMW, I did think seriously about getting it done.

The only issue is that if the coating process fails, you cannot use the usual acid bath that they use on alumium cylinders, because the bath leaves aluminium alone, and eats the Nikilsil coating together with iron and steel.

That might result in junked cylinders.

http://www.langcourt.com/page8.html
 
Then of course is the expansion of alloy barrels compared to cast iron.....when the alloy barrels heat up using std Commando through bolts the bolts stretch / pull the threads in the cases and when everything cools down the next time you start the motor the torque on the crankcase to barrel and barrel to head mating faces is reduced and gaskets can more easily blow...you need non std bolts with similar expansion rates to aluminium....just a thought from someone who did an investigation into the subject for a friend who was making alloy Norton barrels and had a gasket problem. Mr Irving in one of his books gives the correct grage of steel to use but Jessop went many decades ago but I talked to a Gentleman who told me the grade of stainless steel to use and they solved the friends gasket blowing problem. From Memory I believe the steel was Ke965. I gfuess someone will look up their copy of the book and correct my ancient memory

Some people even hang Norton engines..in my young days I was told testing showed doing so resulted in a 5 horse power loss due to barrel distortion..(wonder what happens with alloy barrels??)....which I guess is why later Seeley frames etc had supports for the front of the motors.......

Wonder how long it will be before some clever soul starts playing with Aspin rotary heads on Nortons and telling us on these pages.....with modern ceramics stc .........I was told 40 to 50 years ago that Honda were playing with the idea......
 
J. M. Leadbeater said:
Wonder how long it will be before some clever soul starts playing with Aspin rotary heads on Nortons and telling us on these pages.....with modern ceramics stc .........I was told 40 to 50 years ago that Honda were playing with the idea......
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You think anyone on this list would be crazy enough to try something like that...... :twisted:

If it wasn't for all these cylinder heads to rebuild first.
 
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