New World Pecking Order?

Where do the Commando like racers fall time wise on famous tracks in relation to other classes of more modern racers? What seems to weak point, power, traction, handling? Road racing question more than drag race or land speed which I've got a fair grasp of.

one input

"Here rests the Norton Commando Production Racer. Beautiful, fast, British— and too late." •

http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/ ... ro_rac.htm

Hobot, are you planning on making "Ms. Peel" faster than a Moto GP bike now?

From the "Yellow Submarine", or Yellow Peril, text linked above, the pretty close to maximum development of a
Commando back in the early 70's was around 70hp at 7000rpm.

This compares to the some 60hp generally quoted from Norton in their marketing in that era.
And these hp figures were at the crank, not rear wheel.

From the link:

The head was alloy, gas-flowed and machined with no squish bands, a configuration which, with the slightly domed forged pistons, gave a compression ratio of 10.25:1. Together with the special phosphor bronze valve guides and seats, the larger intake valves and large steel manifolds and 32mm Amal Racing Concentric or remote-float GP "Matchbox" carbs, the package was good for 70 hp at 7000 rpm. A Boyer electronic ignition kit was offered as an option, as was a five-speed Rod Quaife gearbox, which had much closer ratios than the four-speed racing unit that was standard.

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Now, to Hobot's question: Even in that era, Commandos as developed above where still way down on horsepower
compared to their racing competition. The Yamaha two strokes were much faster accelerating and top end.

No point comparing even still more highly developed Commandos to modern even non racing bikes of today.
Even a twenty five year old Japanese four cylinder 600cc has much more power.

A good example is Peter WIlliam's famous Isle of Man 1973 victory, in which his race average was 105mph, compared
to the 125mph Island laps of today.

Power, handling, everything: the best Commandos are still way inferior to today's bikes sold right off showroom floor.

Yeah . . . but they can be ridden well and then they make ya look good.

The Yellow Peril is a good example of clanky ole Commando holding its own against younger generation muscle bikes. I'll have to look up various class track times over the world to get some sense of where current Norton racers land in pecking order. More on my mind is real road contests or just fast play I see and get to do out here. Don't expect any Commando to take on GP bikes or Hyabrusa's in long open freeway and turn pile conditions. By the clover leafs and canyon places and more technical tracks I sure would. I do not pick contests or try to even hang with hot shots on my factory Combat. I pressed it into hinged onsets on way home with carb bowl gasket hanging out. It gets upset before my wimpy SV does but has about as much pull and top end but ain't usable like it is on the SV. Anywho its a nebulous question because pilot skill on a bike comes into play with contests. Still nothing like the rust of getting ahead unexpectingly. Don't press your luck on un-tammed Cdo's please.
All's I can say is if a paired down R1 or GSRX's with scubbed off edges looks like a bait fish to you, who's missing out.

Don't have Norton twin figures to hand but some recent results from the Ulster Grand Prix (in 2010) might give some perspective between classic and modern. The UGP is one of the fastest road races in the world. The winner of the classic event (a very quick 500 Paton twin) had a best lap speed of 111 mph and a best lap time of 3:58. The winner of the Supertwins race (race prepared modern Suzuki and Kawasaki 650 twins) had a best lap speed of 116 mph and a best lap time of 3:49. The next best classic lap speed was a Manx Norton at 102. The top guys in the 125 Race (two-stroke, single cylinder GP bikes) were in the 105 - 110 mph range. A good rider on a good race Commando might get into the low 100s mph.

hobot said:

I'll have to look up various class track times over the world to get some sense of where current Norton racers land in pecking order.

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I race with WMRRA at Pacific Raceways in Washington and on my Commando I am lapping in the mid 1"40's; on a Yamaha R6 the mid to upper 1" 30's. Faster guy's on Vintage bikes are in the low 1" 40's and the fastest guys on modern bikes are in the mid 1"20's.

Being cynical , youd have to say 10 mph of that , AT LEAST , is due to track & tyre improvements , & more brakes .

For comparison , the track is a little smoother than pre war ( 90 mph laps ) though they didnt have to open the gates ,
by then .

While the whizz bangs may have more H.P. , do they have more TORQUE ?

H.D. XR 750 got up to around 100 HP @ around a H P a year development , from the original 70 HP .

A noteable development as series of engine develop , is the weight increases as the case is reinforced , to contained the increased output developed .Therefore the ridgidity / stiffness is improved , and the alignment , so power is further increased .

If you wanna go 483 m.p.h. , yr gonna need NITRO .






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqwJzzlroLI

Met a chap who sais he was at NORTON 69 / 70 this Sun . Spat off full wellie at MIRA when it let go , in the wet . BATMAN act / flying lessons etc . ARRGGHHH .
also Poore full wellie to thruxton drifting the Merc into a bend at the ton & accelerateing throughout onto the straight .
Intresting as hed been aquainted with all the cogs in the big wheel that was Norton .

race with WMRRA at Pacific Raceways in Washington and on my Commando I am lapping in the mid 1"40's; on a Yamaha R6 the mid to upper 1" 30's. Faster guy's on Vintage bikes are in the low 1" 40's and the fastest guys on modern bikes are in the mid 1"20's.

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Thank you ggryder for the realistic pecking order on same track. Macthes my limited pecking order testing in the more open hwy runs. My stock Combat ain't up to the handling or power - wt. of last couple decades of 600's. Will be even sweeter if I can fix up a Cdo based street bike to hang with the modern racers or even embarrass them in handling power.

I've had my R90 racer out on the track here for three meets, mainly for the others to go around... there are some very fast Commandos, way faster than me, Moto Guzzi 850's,equal with a 900ss Imola and a Triton. I have no idea what state of tune they are in but rumor suggests not a lot of the parts came from the Norton factory.
Mind you a lot comes down to the ability/bravery of the rider...... I have meager amounts of these.....but it is fun to punt a home built bike around a track and pretend.
I had a blast on my mates race T140 around on the track parade without going over 5500 so I could be tempted to take out the Combat on " the Track Parade"....but I would be thinking of all those old ( fragile) bits spinning around wanting to get out.....the BMW was chosen for the lowish prices of used parts, availability and solid engineering.....
I've yet to put it on the dyno but I'd be surprised if its much over 50BHP...although it feels faster than my Triumph Thruxton....did the Superbike school on that.
Against modern bikes on a track day I get blitzed on the straights.....they wait for me on the corners to catch up though.... :roll:

NeatO 72Combat. I've only been on one small track at a corner school on '01 900 Ninja but made the most of it w/o oncoming traffic or deer. So only got one lap at a time before jerked off for angry lectures - bikes can't do that w/o crashing. Going by what I was later able to do on my hopped up lightened Combat I would think the better Cdo racers could over take that Ninja in turns and straights.

Pilot skills should not be part of this bike pecking order, just the bikes capacity with best pilots. Yet pilot skill and bravery definitely needed to press a bike to limits in various conditions again and again, whewweepeepee! just some are fun - others a terror.

I got to let Trixie Combat hair out a couple times this week, like tonight's home run. Conditions allowed entering hinged handling a bit, which if on WOT tends to delay the weaving wobbles till let off some then hits stronger than entering THE Hinge by creeping up on it from below. I know it like a drunken friend to hold on to. I ran over the ton a while with more pull on tap but fear using up the stock parts backed me off soon to 90's. So a good ole Combat ain't up to keeping up with street 600's but maybe in the tightest places in 2nd gear zone. My SuVee650 can spank my Combat but for the lovely feel and not having to paddle my way around on a buzz bomb.