NEC NORTON

They need a classic in the line up and if they need any proof of the demand they only have to look at Triumph, Royal Enfield and other imported brands such as MASH, AJS and shortly BSA. If they don't get their finger out they may be too late.
 
Fast Eddie said:
I reckon TVS could get the 961 through Euro regs IF they wanted to.

Lets face it, the EFI system was bottom drawer, so big improvements could be made there. From a noise perspective its the f*cking primary drive clatter that must be the biggest issue. And that needs re designing anyway IMHO (it was definitely one of the reasons I sold mine).

But like I said… IF they want to…
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Not sure the the EFI is bottom drawer though. Not sure where they would go from there. Jenvey are respected company, ECU is from a respected company. They could go direct port injection, but that means serious mods and little in the way of benefits. Granted, idle could be improved though. The current set up, once you sort the charge robbing, means you can put the AFR anywhere you need it at any engine speed/load. I think the key to passing newer emissions is going to be catalytic converters, mucho catalytic converters. That could be tricky, but Triumph have managed it!

Agree, mechanical noise is probably the biggest issue!
 
Vernon240 said:
Not sure the the EFI is bottom drawer though. Not sure where they would go from there. Jenvey are respected company, ECU is from a respected company. They could go direct port injection, but that means serious mods and little in the way of benefits. Granted, idle could be improved though. The current set up, once you sort the charge robbing, means you can put the AFR anywhere you need it at any engine speed/load. I think the key to passing newer emissions is going to be catalytic converters, mucho catalytic converters. That could be tricky, but Triumph have managed it!

Agree, mechanical noise is probably the biggest issue!
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Yes Jenvey are respected but I thought (from reading other threads) that the system in its entirety on the 961 was low spec / old hat?

There were certainly folk on here mentioning better at least. But I struggle setting up Amal’s so it’s all above my head !!
 
Fast Eddie said:
Yes Jenvey are respected but I thought (from reading other threads) that the system in its entirety on the 961 was low spec / old hat?

There were certainly folk on here mentioning better at least. But I struggle setting up Amal’s so it’s all above my head !!
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It could be fixed using a throttle servo. Get rid of the passage between and let the servo set the throttle flaps . This is how the new Kaw Z650 is. Heck , the Delta 400 might be able to do this now with a electric servo throttle body.
 
Fast Eddie said:
Yes Jenvey are respected but I thought (from reading other threads) that the system in its entirety on the 961 was low spec / old hat?

There were certainly folk on here mentioning better at least. But I struggle setting up Amal’s so it’s all above my head !!
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No, it's pretty good in my view...I've done a fair amount of work with injection and the throttle bodies are still a reasonably good way to go. It's good stuff. You could potentially tweak it and the idle control could be better...which might mean a slightly better design of throttle body, but the biggest issue will be cleaning up the exhaust post combustion with cats. Every time Euo regs change, the cats get bigger and packaging on something like a bike gets trickier.

I recon your point of noise is the toughest nut to crack...
 
cliffa said:
They need a classic in the line up and if they need any proof of the demand they only have to look at Triumph, Royal Enfield and other imported brands such as MASH, AJS and shortly BSA. If they don't get their finger out they may be too late.
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If you look at Ducati, their classic line up is the scrambler line and it doesn’t sell all that well. Nor does the Mv Agusta Superveloce. Who knows where TVS is heading. They already have the most beautiful classic bike, the real question is do they believe in the 961to make it available world wide or are they scared that future customers are going to think it’s still tied to conman garner ?
 
Voodooo said:
If you look at Ducati, their classic line up is the scrambler line and it doesn’t sell all that well. Nor does the Mv Agusta Superveloce. Who knows where TVS is heading. They already have the most beautiful classic bike, the real question is do they believe in the 961to make it available world wide or are they scared that future customers are going to think it’s still tied to conman garner ?
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My mate had a superveloce...well has, but on Saturday it's being traded in. We were at Donington park on a track day after dropping in his Dominator in to have short opens fitted. That didn't go well and they broke a mounting boss off the frame. New frame needed. Still, he had the Superveloce to ride. Until he had a call the same day. It was in for service but the fancy rekluse clutch needed adjusting. The only issue the only tool to do it in Europe was in, you guessed it, Italy. This year, said fancy clutch failed, after some argument, it was covered under warranty, but he had to fight for it...and only after 6000 ish miles. Serious problems trading in against anything as well, but finally traded it and he's pretty relieved. Still took a serious hit on depreciation.

I guess TVS/Norton will tell us all in good time, but to ignore the classic line would be a mistake in my view.
 
To fix the 961 issues, and I mean really fix them, not just apply band aids, so that the 961 would be attractive to the general m/c buying public would require major mods:

1. Change the cases to wet sump cases, with the oil pump inside the sump. They can have vertically split cases with the "pump in the sump." Just look at Ducatis. No more external oil tank, no anti-backflow valve BS, and sump can have an oil view glass to check oil level, HURRAH! :D

2. Change cases to drive balancer shaft from the timing side. This eliminates the intermediate primary gear.

3. Spend some capital to redesign the gearbox to put shifter drum and forks behind the clusters. This allows the shifter shaft and spring pawl to be placed behind, and below the clutch hub, where they should be. No more shifter shaft sticking out in the middle of the primary, no more curved shifting rod.

4. Step 3 allows the gearbox to be moved several inches forward in the crankcase, which allows the cases to be shortened front to back. Now the swingarm pivot can pass through the rear case, reducing frame mass, and providing longer swingarm with no change in wheel base.

5. Redesign the head to be liquid cooled. Keep cylinders air cooled. Then 961 can get away with a small-ish radiator. This addresses Euro emissions issues.

6. Ditch the current EFI, get a Keihin EFI system. resolves starting, idling, running issues associated to the current system.

7. Fix the breather system.

If TVS/Norton made these changes, they would transform the 961 from an owner headache, into a machine that anyone would be interested in owning and riding. The 961 aesthetics eclipse any of it's current modern classic competition, if it also had modern reliability, and ease of maintenance, and a dealer network the 961 would be a sales winner too.

Something for TVS to ponder.



:D
 
BritTwit said:
To fix the 961 issues, and I mean really fix them, not just apply band aids, so that the 961 would be attractive to the general m/c buying public would require major mods:

1. Change the cases to wet sump cases, with the oil pump inside the sump. They can have vertically split cases with the "pump in the sump." Just look at Ducatis. No more external oil tank, no anti-backflow valve BS, and sump can have an oil view glass to check oil level, HURRAH! :D

2. Change cases to drive balancer shaft from the timing side. This eliminates the intermediate primary gear.

3. Spend some capital to redesign the gearbox to put shifter drum and forks behind the clusters. This allows the shifter shaft and spring pawl to be placed behind, and below the clutch hub, where they should be. No more shifter shaft sticking out in the middle of the primary, no more curved shifting rod.

4. Step 3 allows the gearbox to be moved several inches forward in the crankcase, which allows the cases to be shortened front to back. Now the swingarm pivot can pass through the rear case, reducing frame mass, and providing longer swingarm with no change in wheel base.

5. Redesign the head to be liquid cooled. Keep cylinders air cooled. Then 961 can get away with a small-ish radiator. This addresses Euro emissions issues.

6. Ditch the current EFI, get a Keihin EFI system. resolves starting, idling, running issues associated to the current system.

7. Fix the breather system.

If TVS/Norton made these changes, they would transform the 961 from an owner headache, into a machine that anyone would be interested in owning and riding. The 961 aesthetics eclipse any of it's current modern classic competition, if it also had modern reliability, and ease of maintenance, and a dealer network the 961 would be a sales winner too.

Something for TVS to ponder.



:D
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I think you may have just put them off the whole idea …!
 
Fast Eddie said:
I think you may have just put them off the whole idea …!
Click to expand...
Maybe, but anything worth doing, is worth doing right.
What value is there in a sightly, less failure prone engine, when you know how to fix the entire problem.
Excelsior! :cool:
 
BritTwit said:
To fix the 961 issues, and I mean really fix them, not just apply band aids, so that the 961 would be attractive to the general m/c buying public would require major mods:

1. Change the cases to wet sump cases, with the oil pump inside the sump. They can have vertically split cases with the "pump in the sump." Just look at Ducatis. No more external oil tank, no anti-backflow valve BS, and sump can have an oil view glass to check oil level, HURRAH! :D

2. Change cases to drive balancer shaft from the timing side. This eliminates the intermediate primary gear.

3. Spend some capital to redesign the gearbox to put shifter drum and forks behind the clusters. This allows the shifter shaft and spring pawl to be placed behind, and below the clutch hub, where they should be. No more shifter shaft sticking out in the middle of the primary, no more curved shifting rod.

4. Step 3 allows the gearbox to be moved several inches forward in the crankcase, which allows the cases to be shortened front to back. Now the swingarm pivot can pass through the rear case, reducing frame mass, and providing longer swingarm with no change in wheel base.

5. Redesign the head to be liquid cooled. Keep cylinders air cooled. Then 961 can get away with a small-ish radiator. This addresses Euro emissions issues.

6. Ditch the current EFI, get a Keihin EFI system. resolves starting, idling, running issues associated to the current system.

7. Fix the breather system.

If TVS/Norton made these changes, they would transform the 961 from an owner headache, into a machine that anyone would be interested in owning and riding. The 961 aesthetics eclipse any of it's current modern classic competition, if it also had modern reliability, and ease of maintenance, and a dealer network the 961 would be a sales winner too.

Something for TVS to ponder.



:D
Click to expand...
What are the advantage of a Keihin EFI system? that's a new one on me!
 
Vernon240 said:
What are the advantage of a Keihin EFI system? that's a new one on me!
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Nothing special, just that:
Keihin is simply the gold standard when talking about carburetors and EFI.
Pretty much every Japanese bike manufacturer (Thaiumph too) uses their EFI systems.
I don't know of any Jap bike that is hard to start, has poor idling or runs poorly.
'nough said.

Downside is that the percent of UK parts in the 961 would be less.
 
BritTwit said:
Nothing special, just that:
Keihin is simply the gold standard when talking about carburetors and EFI.
Pretty much every Japanese bike manufacturer (Thaiumph too) uses their EFI systems.
I don't know of any Jap bike that is hard to start, has poor idling or runs poorly.
'nough said.

Downside is that the percent of UK parts in the 961 would be less.
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We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one. The 961 engine is totally different to any engine on a modern bike, wider tolerances, especially how Norton built them! pushrod, single cam, 2 valve heads, air cooled. Modern engines have more efficient combustion chambers, in many cases higher compression, 4 valves per cylinder, a more direct cam actuation etc. If you took a 961 engine and simply replaced the fuel injection system, I’d be surprised if you saw a great improvement without significantly redesigning the engine. I’ve used these throttle bodies on other engines and they are neither hard to start or run poorly, even when I have had to schronise 4 together. As I Wilson detailed, the linking of the idle airflow paths is probably the biggest issue with the current set up. Having said all that, if someone fits a different injection system and makes no other changes to the engine and it runs significantly better than with the current system, I’ll eat my words!. I have another set of throttle bodies to play with, so I’m going to see what I can do.
 
Vernon240 said:
but the biggest issue will be cleaning up the exhaust post combustion with cats. Every time Euo regs change, the cats get bigger and packaging on something like a bike gets trickier.
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What do cats actually do? are the emissions they clean up measured at the MOT. I binned all 3 cats off my Subaru and it still passed the MOT test.
 
With the 961 comando, I want them to do two things:-

1. Offer a fix for all known issues (less the ones we already sorted) via a dealer network or direct with factory for a set price. That would benefit us, bring us on side with the new Norton Brand and create a huge amount of goodwill.

2. Make a new comando to meet the latest regs, which would likely be a water cooled engine maybe assembled from their parts shipped in from other factories if necessary.

I am sure we all wish the brand well
 
Welshrugby said:
1. Offer a fix for all known issues (less the ones we already sorted) via a dealer network or direct with factory for a set price. That would benefit us, bring us on side with the new Norton Brand and create a huge amount of goodwill.
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I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…

I don’t see that happening in a million years !

(but I’d be delighted to be proven wrong)
 
storm42 said:
What do cats actually do? are the emissions they clean up measured at the MOT. I binned all 3 cats off my Subaru and it still passed the MOT test.
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well, allegedly they remove all the nasty stuff from the exhaust, like carbon monoxide, Nitrogen dioxide and Hydrocarbons...hence the term '3 way catalytic converter'..and turn it into not so nasty stuff. The MOT test will measure Carbon Monoxide and HC's (hydrocarbons....essentially partially or unburnt fuel), so not everything that the cat should deal with. In short, the MOT standards are less rigorous vs the test manufacturers have to meet for type approval. I think it's all BS. Not that reducing emissions is a bad thing, but you set up very specific tests that manufacturers will have to pass..and they will design their vehicles to pass them. I've seen air fuel ratio plots where the fuel ratio leans right out at a certain RPM. Right at where the emissions are checked to pass regulations. Coincidence? the most extreme version of this was the VW emissions scandal. I guess my argument is that the vehicles are designed to pass a specific test and not reduce real world emissions under normal driving/riding conditions. There was one very interesting article where a reporters dad was thinking of changing his old car for a newer car almost purely based on emissions and 'doing the right thing'. They were able to get an emission tester (and it was tough...most suppliers didn't want to lend kit as they said 'our main customers are the manufacturers and this could really upset them'). This thing literally had to be strapped to the back of the car and collected everything from the exhaust, so almost a closed system. They tested the dads 10 year old car and then a brand new version of the same car, several euro levels higher. They drove the same route, so stop start, town and faster roads...so a real world test..for both cars. Surprisingly, the older car was cleaner than the new car. I've not seen the test repeated, but I'd be very interested if it was. This all just seems to be giving lip service to emissions, brow beating us into accepting ever tighter regulations and pointing to flawed tests that 'prove' the emissions are lower, while precious metals are being mined, consumerism is king and this is all meant to protect the planet when in reality it's not...it actually could be the opposite :mad: I'll get off me soap box now! o_O
 
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