Ms Peel boring tough crank crying

Just sharing the ongoing pain of Peel's gestation. There's a few more events even more show stopping than this latest one concerning her crank shaft. I think spark erosion may be the solution. Prior issue was unexpected offsets at both ends. So much most advisers said its trash but found a marine crank shop that does BI cranks a long time and they straightened to within .002". Ends were found too under size and impossible to chrome d/t the nitride. Ken copper plated inner races and got crank to spin free finally. Then he calculated the new BF with Jim's Schimdt's light piston and steel rod kit, instead of lightened Cosworth pistons and stock shot peened rod, it spiked from 77% to upper 90's%. Here's the deflated message to share. >>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hi Steve,

seems like nothing ever goes quite right with your crankshaft. I bought a 1" tap, and some 1" allen set screws to turn into balancing plugs, and finally got around to setting up to drill the crank. I've attached a picture of it on the mill. I set it up with an edge finder and the mill's DRO to get the holes properly located, and planned to drill two holes, one on each side of the centerline, and thread them for the 1" plugs. I needed to drill them offset from the center to miss the center bolt that originally held the weights on. That's all welded noe, but the bolt is still there, and I didn't want to try and drill and tap through the center of it. It's probably high strength, and very hard. Turns out it's not the only thing thats hard. The flywheel is so hard I can't drill it without buying some high performance carbide drills that are designed for drilling hardened steel. I don't know if it's the original heat treat from Ron, or from Geoff's process, but it's really tough stuff. I'd have to spend a lot of money for the drills, and I still couldn't tap it with the high speed steel tap I have. I'd have to buy a tap designed for hardened steels. I'd have to spend something like $300 for drills and the tap, and I'm not sure it would work that well. I don't think I want to go there.

Even if I could drill it to the right static balance factor, you would still need to send it to a balance shop for dynamic balancing. I know you had that done originally, but after all the welding, straightening, and grinding, there's no way it's still right for dynamic balance. I'm suggesting you talk to your original balance shop, tell them the problem, and see if they can sort it out for you.

Ken Canaga

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Whoa, how depressing. I sold an excellent condition, never been ground, journals still in tolerance, 750 crank on ebay a couple weeks ago. (Came from a 1971 750 that the speedo said only 8000 miles.) Only got $102 for it too. :cry: Perhaps maybe you'll consider buying a new (used) crank ??? (fleabay ???) I would like to hear of Ms Peel on the road again ...

I have my old 1973 850 crank available for sale. the rod journals need work, one is .020 over and the other is .040 over. and rough. Repairable. spun both bearings. I replaced it with a 1975 crank I found. It's probably not what you want or need, but it's here.

Take it to a place that does EDM, get them to start the hole with a small current and once its 1/4" deep get them to increase the current and put a new die in. This should give you a hole that is larger 1/4" below the top and get it filled with molten lead or Mallory Metal.

kommando said:

Take it to a place that does EDM, get them to start the hole with a small current and once its 1/4" deep get them to increase the current and put a new die in. This should give you a hole that is larger 1/4" below the top and get it filled with molten lead or Mallory Metal.

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Interesting idea, except for the heavy metal. We're trying to remove weight from the flywheel to reduce the balance factor, not add weight. The original plan was to drill and tap a couple 1" diameter holes, and then use threaded plugs to experiment with different balance factors. A couple people have suggested using re-ground carbide masonry drills, so we'll give that a try, but might have to skip tapping the holes, just drill carefully to remove the right amount of weight.

Ken

I admire your tenacity and I applaud your endless spirit; Peel (Emma?) and Trixie (Trixie) are lucky motorcycles. A 77% BF is over the top. Jim Schmidt recommends 65% for an Isolastic and something less for a solid mounted engine; or is this your secret to beating sport bikes and motards?

I'm curious why you didn't just spring for a one piece Falicon and be done with your lower end, virtually, for ever??

RS

Thanks for the crank parts offering but I'm past point of no return on Peels crank.

Plans of mice and men apply to me and Ms Peel, a nod to Mrs Emma Peel fantasy character which was a play of words on M-appeal era when M = masculine. There's a lot to Peel's travails that long pre-date me sticking my nose in this forum camp tent.

Part of the trouble is cost and part my learning curves and part pure fate.
Original plan was just stick on Drouin on race like Combat that '04 600's could not keep up with only 900's could out do in straights. Then 11,000+++ stuck throttle took the spunk out of that engine which was still up to normal Combat another 2000 miles. It bent crank so I saved the special flywheel and current tale began about 3 yr ago

Peel's crank core is last of a kind from Ron Fratturelli http://nortoncommando.com/start.htm. Its very hi grade steel plate, 1/2" smaller dia and almost 5 lb lighter. Zippy nice out from under in past Peel.

I'd gotten two cheeks and send kit to Geoff Collins http://www.offsetcrank.com/
to weld into one piece and Nitride all over tight and BF to 77% based on my motion tracings and sense of linked isolastics on tire edge power pulses grip.

$1500 later it was sent straight to Ken. About $500 of this was for extra heavy metal slugs to raise BF. So compare $1000 for a plenty sufficient crank to the other hi end offerings.

Ken then found ends bent enough to defy known saving. I found marine crank shop that saved it cheaply. Then Ken found the race journals under size but Nitride prevented chroming and very expensive. He saved day again by in shop Cu platting bearing races. Then installed it to end space it but found it bound up, so after both ends scratching, he took off some .0000X" of Cu to restore bearing pinch cleanance. Its still mystery how it got this way and released by Geoff who makes serious robust expensive tools for this but does not do the work as he's arranged hi end specially shops for it.

But there's more, 77% was done using Ken's lightened up Costworth pistons and Geoff's shot peened Norton rods, but this put CR almost to 12 which meant hogging out the nice small head chambers, thick gasket/base plate and losing the big wide squish bands Ken got by making 920 pistons fit up in a 750 CHO head. Then Jim Schmidt announced his light piston steel rod kit with 10.5 CR as is. Jim's kit is lighter yet so shot BF into upper 90's. Highest BF in solid Cdo I've researched is 93%. Ken then raised my mood no end by figuring out he could remove enough off flywheel BDC to get back into 50's BF and by threaded plugs play with BF by just popping barrels off. How cool is that! Dynamic balance should not change significantly this way just the BF. I already know Peel will be smooth on wide range of BF, its the tire hysteria 10% slip sonic zone grip and chassis/pilot gyro on air borne antics I'm most fascinated with.

Then yesterday got mood dropper news Ken's bits bounced off Peel's hide which both pleased and depressed m at once. So we all await the next episode of cliff hanger.

Wow, didn't realize Peel's crank was not a standard Commando. Great picture of it BTW !!! I find Peel to be ... "quite fascinating" as well as entertaining. I luv to hear how it "spanks" the modern spork bikes, as I always had a thang' for those sheep' in wolf's clothing type bikes. Specially the British ones. Keep the updates comin' hobot, as I'm a Ms Peel info junkie now !!!

Thanks for posting Peel's crank photo. At the beginning of this thread I was going to suggest starting over with a fresh crank but now I see your point. Like the age old saying - Peel's true beauty lies within - or how ever that saying goes. You should submit that photo to Dave for his 2011 calendar : )

Thanks guys its up lifting to drag others into Peel's poo with me. As impressive as her power plant may be, 10.5 CR, 920, 10+ PSI boots water injected steamer, its still just icing on the cake of rump rod and its 2 helpers. Don't need but good Combat power if roads require much time leaned a bit to eat sports bikes for snacks then shift up to leave em all behind for some real meaty solo road orgasms.

About every famous name in Nortondoom, some expired now have had a hand in Ms Peel's character. BTW everything in and around this crank shaft has been cryogenic tempered. Al cases too as destresses and compacts metal grains very densely then relaxed again on a heat cycle before finished.

I've never seen or held this crank yet but by the photo's Ken has sent. Saved shipping plus I'm only a half fast pilot not a mechanic machinist. For a sense of the difference in Ms Peel's cute'r trimmer tighter bottom end >>>

I'm now a believer in old Brit Iron motto "Clean The Sludge Trap" so had
Geoff make provision of clean out ports in cheeks that get Al plugs and help shift mass towards higher BF by removing some on piston side of crank. Issue is if enough sludge can choke flow to rod shells, no much to do with BF. Each heavy metal slug is worth $125 extra : ( I guess ~20 yr use before pay back starts.
Ken's taking a big hard chunk out - priceless.

I have some better news (at last) on the crankshaft. I tried the masonry drill Jim suggested, and it works. I've attached a couple of picture of the operation. The hardness is just at the surface, and once I get through it with the masonry drill, I can drill the rest of the way with a conventional cobalt alloy drill. I think the hard case is just from the nitriding. So far I've drilled a 1/2" hole in the center of the flywheel, down to the bolt, just to take out some weight. I've drilled another 1/2" hole to one side of the center hole, which will be enlarged to take the 1" threaded plug. I'll do another plug on the other side of the center hole. As long as I can get through the hard case first, I should be able to tap the holes for the plug. It was a real pain to keep the drills from wandering down the slope of the flywheel on the second hole. I managed to grind a flat area with a stone in the mill, but it was a real PITA. I'm going to see if I can find some tools to make it easier on the second hole. I also have to pickup a larger masonry drill. Should have it all sorted out pretty soon.

Ken

I wonder have you ever ridden a parallel twin with what seems like 60% of the flywheel weight removed? Never come across this mod before, and I cant honestly think of any application where increased vibration, and reduced torque are likely to be of much use to the person carrying out the alterations.

I wonder have you ever ridden a parallel twin with what seems like 60% of the flywheel weight removed? Never come across this mod before, and I cant honestly think of any application where increased vibration, and reduced torque are likely to be of much use to the person carrying out the alterations.

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Well actually yes I have, my first m/c was a discarded P!! dedicated drag bike the pilot dropped at nearly 150 mph after wining its National classes in '68 & '69 with mid 10 sec 1/4 mile ET's. I weight 150 lb and could pick bike up and swing it around to roll out to ride. I could not use much throttle till over 60 mph or just smoke in place or slide right out on street tire instead of drag slick with 3 bead locks. It was fine to putter around in college town traffic till one of those pesky chain saw H2's triple smoked up beside and rev'd up drop clutch so I'd down shift one and then run on past them beyond the ton then wait at next light - if they hadn't turned off on a side road first with tali tucked in hunches. This may have been a Woods or Axtell engine further tweaked than desert racers for short runs only. Its tach was marked at 9,000 rpm and I touched that any time or gear I could stand to.

Prior Ms Peel's crank was 20%-ish lighter but won every rev up contest Hyabrusa to Ducati twin or enduro single we tired it, even spotting the hi rev'r 4000 rpm to Peels 2000, them zoooooMMMM, Peel BlAPPPP! I could not flit WOT and release in time to prevent tach needle shooting over red line. Once I got the exhaust dialed in I almost got left behind a few times till innate reflex developed on the P!!, grip bars hard at same time plant butt down frim in seat and lower trunk so spine more aligned before throttle snaps in lower gears. If you never had a ski rope jerked out you hands then likely can't relate to how a nice light crank and good engine tune responds right now.

Traction reaction becomes digital on / off. Ms Peel was not as powerful as My P!!. P!! sat so low could not deal with city street turns using forks and lean so only the ability to set tire speed one to one instantly with throttle position allowed real life use. If I set throttle to 60 mph tire was at 60 mph and then just waited a bit till me and bike caught up to 60 mph. Not the fastest way to go forward. Best was by feathering throttle in 1st till rev'd topped out then tap kill button at WOT and float front tire level till topped out and bounce it down one time on kill touch/shift to float again into 4th gradual tire set down as speed gained on power increase. I had great slow idle on both Nortons and never a stall issue on throttle cuts and clutch pulls at speed. P!! liked 600 and Peel 800. I was warned about too light crank, but ain't found it limiting yet.

Anywho this is Goldwing Huge Interial Massive Smooth triple linked Ms Peel not some floppy eared old Commando or springing tuning fork rigid, screw their limited turning load capacity and normal reasons for lighter crank, its the sonic zones of tire hysteria and power trip downs and hi side launches and air time plus landing catches and spinning on vertical center of gravity in decreasing radius drag racing I'm most concerned with in Peel's crank mass and BF.
I have never experienced any thing that hooks up more power than I have on Ms Peel not even the lowered P!!. Who knows I may like 94% BF the best for the power pluses more in ling with the tire thrust.

Starting a drill on a rounded surface is a problem we all run into at some point. Try cutting a flat spot with a center cutting end mill, available at a good industrial supply house. Get one about the same size as the drill you're going to use. Maybe carbide if you're cutting something hard. Peck at it slow and easy until you get a flat spot. Follow that with a center drill, again about the same size to a .125 bigger. That gives the drill something to follow and it works very well. Standard machine practice. actually.

DanD said:

Starting a drill on a rounded surface is a problem we all run into at some point. Try cutting a flat spot with a center cutting end mill, available at a good industrial supply house. Get one about the same size as the drill you're going to use. Maybe carbide if you're cutting something hard. Peck at it slow and easy until you get a flat spot. Follow that with a center drill, again about the same size to a .125 bigger. That gives the drill something to follow and it works very well. Standard machine practice. actually.

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Well, in this case, that would be pretty expensive. The nitrided case is too hard for HSS end mills and center drills. I tried that. The price of a 1" carbide end mill and a carbide center drill was $150, and I didn't want to spend that much for a one-time task, if there was another way. A 1" diameter mounted stone in the mill works pretty well to grind a flat, and the 1/8" masonry drill (carbbide tip) works well for the starting hole. Best part is the stones are $1.25 each, and the masonry drill is less than $3. After drilling through the nitrided case, a conventional cobalt bit can finish the hole. A couple rounds of progressively larger masonry bits, each followed by a cobalt bit, makes a very nice hole at a reasonable cost. Once I get through the nitrided layer with a 1" masonry drill, I think I can tap the hole with a HSS 1" tap, and fit plulgs of different weights so Steve can try different balance factors to his heart's content.

The whole point of this exercise is not to lighten the crank, but to remove enough weight to bring the balance factor back within reason when using Jim Schmidt's light weight pistons and rods.

Ken

lcrken said:

Well, in this case, that would be pretty expensive. The nitrided case is too hard for HSS end mills and center drills. I tried that. The price of a 1" carbide end mill and a carbide center drill was $150, and I didn't want to spend that much for a one-time task, if there was another way.

Ken

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Don't you just bill this cost to the client anyway? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:






just kidding Steve!

Ken, If you want to send it by here on the way home I can punch a hole in it. Got lots of exotic carbide here. Jim

comnoz said:

Ken, If you want to send it by here on the way home I can punch a hole in it. Got lots of exotic carbide here. Jim

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Thanks, Jim. I appreciate the offer, and I know you'd do it right. But, I think I've actually got it sorted out with my low tech approach. I really do know how to do this properly, but I'm trying to save Steve some $$. He's already put way too much into this crank. My labor is free on this project, but the cost of tools isn't.

Ken

Ken gets some interesting learning curves thrown at him by Ms Peel and I get an about bullet proof power plant. Its part of my incentive to not get killed before showing Norton tire smoke to elite bee line appliances. Geoff Collins who had crank built sent back $300 in X-mass card to cover the extra processes and handling so we're square there and will be applied back into never ending Peel project.

I traded Jim C. a drive belt for picking his brain and resurfacing lifters, which I goofed sending a bad one and now wait for the other lifters to drop back here to finish plain Trixie Combat delight.

While on Peel - oil jets still possible by 2 electric pumps, one to jets other to suck sump down into frame cooling. I like how Jim mounted his EI fuel pump down on bottom frame rail so looking if similar size cylindrical oil pumps exist.
Hm maybe fuel pump would work, hm. Peel should power up to 1/2 hp / 400 watts electric excess drain. Need over a gallon a minute split to each piston to matter much. No need of jets until mixture is burning over 175 cfm.

Peel is at state could be assembled with fuel, oil, water and air supplies with engine, minus long rear shocks, electric harness, ride tuck down and machine guns, puma screams with video.