Modern fuel and jetting...

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I have spent countless hours adjusting Amal and Mikuni carburetors, I can do it very well but in the end it's just educated guessing...and it takes hours, days, etc. Using an AFR gauge will make it so much faster and accurate. It will be interesting to compare runs at different months or seasons of the year. One thing that surprised me was how much the pilot jet influenced average riding.
No educated guessing with Colourtune on the pilot circuit, you can, in some cases detect a misfiring fault like a suppressor cap going out. Pilot jet throttles opening in unison, needle jet, needle all can affect the way the engine performs.
AFR gauge will not pin point faults in your carburation. . . . .
You buy or convert to a fully electronic engine then the Engine Control Unit (ECU) malfunctions out of warranty, costs you up to , sometimes more than £500 to buy another one to get back on the road again....... moden cars & bikes are too electronic....you make your choice and pays your money. . . . .
 
No educated guessing with Colourtune on the pilot circuit, you can, in some cases detect a misfiring fault like a suppressor cap going out. Pilot jet throttles opening in unison, needle jet, needle all can affect the way the engine performs.
AFR gauge will not pin point faults in your carburation. . . . .
You buy or convert to a fully electronic engine then the Engine Control Unit (ECU) malfunctions out of warranty, costs you up to , sometimes more than £500 to buy another one to get back on the road again....... moden cars & bikes are too electronic....you make your choice and pays your money. . . . .

Bernhard, I think you misunderstand, no one is converting their Commando to ECU or any such thing. The AFR sensor and gauge being discussed is a TOOL. Just like your colourtune. It’s fitted whilst the carburation is adjusted, and it’s then removed.

Simples.
 
No educated guessing with Colourtune on the pilot circuit, you can, in some cases detect a misfiring fault like a suppressor cap going out. Pilot jet throttles opening in unison, needle jet, needle all can affect the way the engine performs.
AFR gauge will not pin point faults in your carburation. . . . .
You buy or convert to a fully electronic engine then the Engine Control Unit (ECU) malfunctions out of warranty, costs you up to , sometimes more than £500 to buy another one to get back on the road again....... moden cars & bikes are too electronic....you make your choice and pays your money. . . . .
We are talking about a tool that tells you how your engine is carburating
IE setting your pilot air adjustment
The slide cutaway
Needle position etc etc that's all
I ask again have you tried one or is it just your opinion?
 
No educated guessing with Colourtune on the pilot circuit, you can, in some cases detect a misfiring fault like a suppressor cap going out. Pilot jet throttles opening in unison, needle jet, needle all can affect the way the engine performs.
AFR gauge will not pin point faults in your carburation. . . . .
You buy or convert to a fully electronic engine then the Engine Control Unit (ECU) malfunctions out of warranty, costs you up to , sometimes more than £500 to buy another one to get back on the road again....... moden cars & bikes are too electronic....you make your choice and pays your money. . . . .
I would like to try a colortune, always been curious about them. It could be a real advantage for tuning dual amals fairly quickly.
I like a motorcycle free of all the electronic gizmos even though it makes them function much better. The simpler the bike is the better.
 
I run my Norton on the rich side, and enjoy kidding myself. No techno explanation other than my motor seems to tolerate it. Idles fine in stop and go traffic, runs good everywhere in the power band. That said I haven't run it over 90mph recently. Wish I could say I run with white tipped plugs and get 60mpg, but not even close. Somewhere closer to 40mpg with grizzly bear brown plugs. All tuning done with a butt dyno. No hiccups, no sluggish behavior with 3-inch velocity stacks on a pair of 34mm Mikunis. With filters I do have to keep it wound up a little tighter to get good acceleration if I start day dreaming and let the revs get down kind of low near the speed limit in 4th gear. I use 92 octane 10% ethanol pump gas in the pacific northwest USA.

Speaking of kidding myself. My P11 is now officially the last motorcycle I have left. I've had a few, but I've had it the longest, and still enjoy kidding myself about how it feels when I ride it. It feels good.
 
I would like to try a colortune, always been curious about them. It could be a real advantage for tuning dual amals fairly quickly.
I like a motorcycle free of all the electronic gizmos even though it makes them function much better. The simpler the bike is the better.
The colortune is only good for setting your idle mixture. It's sweet to use but thats all it was designed to do. The rest is done with plug colour at various settings and how the mains behave when WOT or just backing off from that position. Play with the needle up and down if you want. Balance your idle on the Amals by feel with both hands over the exhaust pulse and try to get them "by feel" to be the same. I use a "Hammonizer" from a guy who is no longer above ground from the AV Rider forum. Its a Great unit to see how your carbs are balancing while riding. It gives you a smiley:) face when all is well and balanced. You can also use a carbtune balancer but I can't ride with that strapped to my Handlebar. I get 65-69 miles per Imperial gallon on average with my twin Amal Mk1's resleeved by Bruce Chessel. I run Shell high test only. I think its 91 octane Canadian fuel with no ethanol.
I had a balanced exhaust pipe system on my bike, but changed to singles and a new megacycle cam. I had to go up one size on my mains to get them right. Not sure if it was the cam or the exhaust that needed my mains to go up one from 260's to 270's ? Still running standard 106 needle jets and 4 ring needles at mid position.
YMMV
Cheers,
Tom
 
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No educated guessing with Colourtune on the pilot circuit, you can, in some cases detect a misfiring fault like a suppressor cap going out. Pilot jet throttles opening in unison, needle jet, needle all can affect the way the engine performs.
AFR gauge will not pin point faults in your carburation. . . . .
You buy or convert to a fully electronic engine then the Engine Control Unit (ECU) malfunctions out of warranty, costs you up to , sometimes more than £500 to buy another one to get back on the road again....... moden cars & bikes are too electronic....you make your choice and pays your money. . . . .
It is not educated guessing when you progressively lean-off your jetting to get best power. If you go too far lowering the needles, you usually know it because the bike becomes more difficult to ride without missing, and it is not as fast. The problem is it is difficult to create smaller holes in jets and you can only get the main jets right by plug colour. It is not horsepower you should be looking at. You can make high horsepower and burn a piston. Needle jets affect the way the bike accelerates as you wind the throttle on. It is very rare to burn a piston when you are not using full throttle. If you did, the bike would be a real pig to ride. Readings of oxygen levels in exhaust gases are affected by the detector. If you know your bike is performing at it's best, you can use it to reverse-calibrate the detector so your tuning will be easier in future. But using a specified reading as a measure of efficiency for all engines is not clever unless the detector is calibrated against a known. Some engines have inefficient combustion chambers and their best performance involves a lot of unburned fuel. Four-valve motors usually have very flat combustion chambers, whereas Triumph twins always have a build-up of coke on the piston on the side of the crown which is away from the plug, so are less efficient.
It is always a mistake to accept a result from a black box at face value. When a scientist creates a black box they do so from first principles. When an engineer uses it, they often don't know those principles and you can get 'bullshit in - bullshit out'. Most engineers do not know how to calculate the required precision of their measuring instruments by looking at the tolerance which applies to what they are measuring.. If you doubt me, ask an engineer how you calculate a safety factor for a construction material.
 
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On a race bike, the main jets are pretty irrelevant unless they are too lean or the circuit is huge.- Getting the needle jets right for the ignition timing you are using, is critical. I never try to get full throttle power by doing plug chops. , I always run a bit too rich on the mains. It only affects the last few yards of any straight. On most straights - in the lower gears your motor should probably reach max revs , before you reach full throttle Especially if you are using big carbs.
 
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When you carbs are jetted too rich, you really only know because your bike is slower. When your overall gearing is too low, you don't know until you raise it and the bike goes faster. I never time my laps of any race circuit. So what would I know ? All I know is when the next corner arrives faster and I have to do more work to get around it - I might be getting more go..
If you don't try a variety of things, you never find out what works best. You can assume what might work better, but you don't really know until you try it. This also applies to dyno results for horsepower. You might see an increase in power at the top of the rev range, but a decrease in the middle. - the bike might become slower on one race circuit - but on another it might be faster.. It depends on the number of tight corners and the lengths of the straights.
 
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If you get passed, it is always worth taking particular note of the part of the circuit where it happens. For me, I usually only ever get out-run at the ends of the straights. I out-ride the other guys in the corners. With the Commando engine, going for more top end is counter-productive. They are designed to pull hard.
 
Dr Paul Ireland has written a book called "Classic Engines, Modern fuel" giving test results of research carried out at Manchester University.

Many of you may already be aware of this as it has been publicised by the VMCC and other old car and bike organisations. I have cut and pasted the
resume below. The article can be read at https://classicenginesmodernfuel.org.uk



Ethanol in Petrol (E10) - The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
The UK Government is planning to introduce petrol containing 10% ethanol (alcohol) next year. This is referred to as E10. Most of what has been written on this subject does not tell the whole story, focussing on the potential damage this fuel can cause. This article aims to allay owner’s fears, especially for those with classic vehicles.

It is It is based on research performed at Manchester University using an engine designed in the late 1930’s. For anybody wanting to find out the full story, the results and recommendations have been published in a very readable book, Classic Engines, Modern Fuel – The Problems, the Solutions

Question - why add ethanol to petrol in the first place? Government policy to reduce carbon emissions from vehicles is the reason. The carbon in the ethanol comes from renewable sources. It is a by-product of the sugar industry. When running on E10 a petrol engine still emits the same amount of carbon into the atmosphere. However, only 90% of it comes from fossil fuel. E10 effectively reduces the carbon load by 10%.

Adding ethanol to petrol is not new. Cleveland Discol was introduced in 1928 and sold until 1968. The good news is, after 40 years of use in what are now today’s classic cars, DIscol did not appear to cause serious problems.

The Good
Modern petrol is both physically and chemically different from classic petrol. Physical differences include a lower boiling point. Chemical differences include the addition of ethanol. Both of these alter the way a classic engine runs on modern fuel.

The Manchester tests showed modern fuel increases the severity of a phenomena called Cyclic Variability. Making it worse at the RPM and throttle settings used when driving in normal traffic.

All petrol engines suffer from Cyclic Variability. It reduces power output and increases petrol consumption. Worst still, it can cause serious damage. Burning valves and pistons and destroying the big end bearings. A high level of Cyclic Variability is very damaging for an engine. Modern petrol makes this level worse. The book Classic Engines, Modern Fuel – The Problems, the Solutions describes Cyclic Variability and how an engine can be tuned to reduce its severity.

The rankings of the fuels tested at Manchester are shown on the diagram. Three of the top six best performing fuels contained ethanol (shown in orange), the other three (shown in grey) were specialist fuels. Fuels without ethanol (shown in blue) ranked poorly. The test engine ran considerably better on petrol containing ethanol as these reduced the level of Cyclic Variability.

E10 ranked 3rd best, scoring twice as many points as non-blended fuels.

The good news is that E10 promises to reduce potentially very expensive damage to an engine. A positive fact other articles do not make clear.

The Bad
A great deal has been written about the damage ethanol can cause to fuel system components. It rots older non-metallic components such as rubber hoses, seals, diaphragms and plastic floats. Also it contains oxygen which weakens the mixture. E10 makes these problems worse.

Rotting hoses can be a serious problem, especially if they go undetected. Petrol leaks around the engine is the last thing you want. Petrol is highly flammable and leaks are a serious fire risk. Age as well as ethanol causes hoses to rot. In any case, it is worth replacing old hoses, etc. Ethanol proof replacements are now available for most vehicles.

This problem is not as bad as it would first appear. Fitting replacement hoses, etc., is a lot cheaper than rebuilding an engine!

The other problem, that ethanol contains oxygen, is something to be aware of. This causes an engine tuned to run on normal petrol to run weak. Insufficient petrol enters the cylinder. Like Cyclic Variability, weak running can cause serious damage to an engine.

The good news is that variable jet carburettors such as SU and Stromberg only need minor adjustments to offset the effects of E10. Unfortunately, these adjustments are harder with fixed jet carburettors such as Weber and Zenith. These may need new jets or emulsion tubes.

Modern electronic fuel injection systems are able to adjust by themselves.

One interesting result of the Manchester tests was that petrol containing ethanol increased the engine’s power output. This is because it reduces the degree of the damaging Cyclic Variability. As a result, classic engines running on E10 will possibly deliver more MPG not less as some authors have suggested.

The bottom line is that E10 does cause some problems. As long as owners are aware, addressing them is neither difficult nor expensive.

The Ugly
The ugly face of ethanol blended petrol is its ability to dissolve metal. The picture below shows two samples. One a piece of steel, the other part of an aluminium float chamber. These were stored in water that had come in contact with ethanol blended petrol. Even after only 4 months, the level of corrosion is severe.

Before - picture missing
After - picture missing

When water comes into contact with ethanol blended petrol it draws the ethanol out of the petrol making the water acidic. It is this acid that attacks the metal components. This problem is as serious with current petrol blends as it will be with E10. All it needs is a single drop of rainwater getting into the fuel system.

Is this something to worry about? Not really. As long as you are very careful not to get any water into your petrol system. Something easier said than done. Especially with older cars or motor bikes where the filling cap is on the top of the tank. Petrol filling caps or tickler pins in the carburettors can let in water. Especially if driving in heavy rain.

Unfortunately, inhibitors sold to protect against ethanol will not help in this situation. Classic Engines, Modern Fuel – The Problems, the Solutions describes some ways of avoiding this problem.

Conclusion
E10 is not as bad as some people make out. Older engines run better on ethanol blended petrol, reducing the expensive damage Cyclic Variability can cause. While there are some issues, they can be addressed with care and low cost solutions.

Perhaps the forthcoming introduction of E10 is not so bad after all.

Copyright
You are free to use any words or images from this article on the condition a link to this website (https://classicenginesmodernfuel.org.uk/) is included in the publication.

You can:

 
A few years ago in our town there was a petrol station which became subject to a lot of law suits, when the fuel corroded some fuel systems in customers' vehicles. But I have not heard of it happening in recent times
 
Did once whilst production racing...immediately taped it over!
I always find it difficult to look at the tacho while racing, however I know what the motor should sound like when it is revving near the peak and I glance at it. What is important is how far the revs drop when you race-change up. Once you lose too many revs, they usually only come back slowly, depending on your gearbox ratios.
 
Dr Paul Ireland has written a book called "Classic Engines, Modern fuel" giving test results of research carried out at Manchester University.

Many of you may already be aware of this as it has been publicised by the VMCC and other old car and bike organisations. I have cut and pasted the
resume below. The article can be read at https://classicenginesmodernfuel.org.uk



Ethanol in Petrol (E10) - The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
The UK Government is planning to introduce petrol containing 10% ethanol (alcohol) next year. This is referred to as E10. Most of what has been written on this subject does not tell the whole story, focussing on the potential damage this fuel can cause. This article aims to allay owner’s fears, especially for those with classic vehicles.

It is It is based on research performed at Manchester University using an engine designed in the late 1930’s. For anybody wanting to find out the full story, the results and recommendations have been published in a very readable book, Classic Engines, Modern Fuel – The Problems, the Solutions

Question - why add ethanol to petrol in the first place? Government policy to reduce carbon emissions from vehicles is the reason. The carbon in the ethanol comes from renewable sources. It is a by-product of the sugar industry. When running on E10 a petrol engine still emits the same amount of carbon into the atmosphere. However, only 90% of it comes from fossil fuel. E10 effectively reduces the carbon load by 10%.

Adding ethanol to petrol is not new. Cleveland Discol was introduced in 1928 and sold until 1968. The good news is, after 40 years of use in what are now today’s classic cars, DIscol did not appear to cause serious problems.

The Good
Modern petrol is both physically and chemically different from classic petrol. Physical differences include a lower boiling point. Chemical differences include the addition of ethanol. Both of these alter the way a classic engine runs on modern fuel.

The Manchester tests showed modern fuel increases the severity of a phenomena called Cyclic Variability. Making it worse at the RPM and throttle settings used when driving in normal traffic.

All petrol engines suffer from Cyclic Variability. It reduces power output and increases petrol consumption. Worst still, it can cause serious damage. Burning valves and pistons and destroying the big end bearings. A high level of Cyclic Variability is very damaging for an engine. Modern petrol makes this level worse. The book Classic Engines, Modern Fuel – The Problems, the Solutions describes Cyclic Variability and how an engine can be tuned to reduce its severity.

The rankings of the fuels tested at Manchester are shown on the diagram. Three of the top six best performing fuels contained ethanol (shown in orange), the other three (shown in grey) were specialist fuels. Fuels without ethanol (shown in blue) ranked poorly. The test engine ran considerably better on petrol containing ethanol as these reduced the level of Cyclic Variability.

E10 ranked 3rd best, scoring twice as many points as non-blended fuels.

The good news is that E10 promises to reduce potentially very expensive damage to an engine. A positive fact other articles do not make clear.

The Bad
A great deal has been written about the damage ethanol can cause to fuel system components. It rots older non-metallic components such as rubber hoses, seals, diaphragms and plastic floats. Also it contains oxygen which weakens the mixture. E10 makes these problems worse.

Rotting hoses can be a serious problem, especially if they go undetected. Petrol leaks around the engine is the last thing you want. Petrol is highly flammable and leaks are a serious fire risk. Age as well as ethanol causes hoses to rot. In any case, it is worth replacing old hoses, etc. Ethanol proof replacements are now available for most vehicles.

This problem is not as bad as it would first appear. Fitting replacement hoses, etc., is a lot cheaper than rebuilding an engine!

The other problem, that ethanol contains oxygen, is something to be aware of. This causes an engine tuned to run on normal petrol to run weak. Insufficient petrol enters the cylinder. Like Cyclic Variability, weak running can cause serious damage to an engine.

The good news is that variable jet carburettors such as SU and Stromberg only need minor adjustments to offset the effects of E10. Unfortunately, these adjustments are harder with fixed jet carburettors such as Weber and Zenith. These may need new jets or emulsion tubes.

Modern electronic fuel injection systems are able to adjust by themselves.

One interesting result of the Manchester tests was that petrol containing ethanol increased the engine’s power output. This is because it reduces the degree of the damaging Cyclic Variability. As a result, classic engines running on E10 will possibly deliver more MPG not less as some authors have suggested.

The bottom line is that E10 does cause some problems. As long as owners are aware, addressing them is neither difficult nor expensive.

The Ugly
The ugly face of ethanol blended petrol is its ability to dissolve metal. The picture below shows two samples. One a piece of steel, the other part of an aluminium float chamber. These were stored in water that had come in contact with ethanol blended petrol. Even after only 4 months, the level of corrosion is severe.

Before - picture missing
After - picture missing

When water comes into contact with ethanol blended petrol it draws the ethanol out of the petrol making the water acidic. It is this acid that attacks the metal components. This problem is as serious with current petrol blends as it will be with E10. All it needs is a single drop of rainwater getting into the fuel system.

Is this something to worry about? Not really. As long as you are very careful not to get any water into your petrol system. Something easier said than done. Especially with older cars or motor bikes where the filling cap is on the top of the tank. Petrol filling caps or tickler pins in the carburettors can let in water. Especially if driving in heavy rain.

Unfortunately, inhibitors sold to protect against ethanol will not help in this situation. Classic Engines, Modern Fuel – The Problems, the Solutions describes some ways of avoiding this problem.

Conclusion
E10 is not as bad as some people make out. Older engines run better on ethanol blended petrol, reducing the expensive damage Cyclic Variability can cause. While there are some issues, they can be addressed with care and low cost solutions.

Perhaps the forthcoming introduction of E10 is not so bad after all.

Copyright
You are free to use any words or images from this article on the condition a link to this website (https://classicenginesmodernfuel.org.uk/) is included in the publication.

You can:

In country towns in Australia, some of the underground tanks contain both petrol and water. My wife drove home one day, from a town 100 KM away after filling-up with petrol there. We ended up having the car's whole fuel system drained and flushed.
 
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