MAP TALK

I just had a very detailed conversation with a dealer who said he didn't mind if I posted this VERY USEFUL info to the forum. So here goes....

As you can imagine I get a lot of 961 Norton related emails and phone calls. Which I do not mind. However, just to be clear, I am in no way shape or form a dealer or distributor. To date, I have received about 4 maps each claiming to be fantastic and unfortunately, I do not have a Dyno so I cannot verify or test and being winter I cannot even try them. (Although with this recent weather I probably could have).

Any how, it's been my goal to get map 091 as on this forum it's talked about quite a bit as being amazing. So, as most of you know I'll just keep digging until I get it. Well, I did have it offered to me with a HUGE word of caution.

The word of caution was this>>>>>>> 091 MAP IS SPECIFIED FOR THE DOMI WHICH HAS A DIFFERENT AIRBOX. The reason Norton put a stop to it was because some dealers either may not have realized it was ONLY for the Domi or just tried it with great success going by feel and not a professional person with a DYNO. As told to me the map is amazing indeed and makes a huge difference, but amazing for the Domi and not the commando. The map would likely be horrible for daily use and maybe even short spurts as it's far too lean and you would be causing premature engine damage.

So, that being said, I will give up on my 091 quest. If you have 091 on a commando, then I would contact your dealer to see if you will be covered under warranty and get that in writing because it would really suck to burn a hole in a piston.

There is a Map from Texas from a guy on here who spent a pretty penny on it and is willing to share it. I'm not saying other maps aren't as great, but this one did come from a reputable source and It was made for a Commando and chances are it will be better than the 091 and 077 maps. But I haven't tried it and I'm not sure if the factory will approve it. Although I was told this map was sent to the factory for review. We should all thank him but I will let him reveal himself as it's not my place to do so.

Anyways, use this info how ever you see fit. And lets hope that the factory can fine tune 077 for spring.

ALSO - This dealer advised me that there are legalities involved with maps so please be cautious with what you write on a public forum (hence why I didn't mention the dealers name). You can do what you want as I'm not the map police -- just giving you that heads up in-case you weren't aware of it..


PS - Merry Christmas. and don't forget to visit https://coloradonortonworks.net/part-categories/parts-and-tools-for-the-new-961-norton.html and https://coloradonortonworks.net/part-categories/961-norton-workshop-manuals.html More MANUALS coming soon.

Richard, I think it would be wonderful for an interested party, with the necessary technical knowledge, and equipment to put the #91 map to the test. So that we would have solid, indisputable proof of how it is works. With any device like the 961, produced in small, limited quantities, there is a real absence of aftermarket support, and a lot of urban legend surrounding them. I had the #90 map installed on my bike in September after wrestling with several performance issues with my 961. I had my dealer install the SouthBay Norton complete system (de-catted crossover pipe/silencers) before I took delivery. I used the #77 map for more than a year, but had too many issues, mostly starting, cold Idling and flat spots in the RPM range. These were completely resolved by installing #90 map. The 90 map got rid of what I believe was a lean condition. Did the guy from Texas say what type of system it is designed for? Cat or De-catted crossover pipe, silencer type. Etc..? He may have something here, but it would need testing and verification to be certain.

Interesting the bit about the dealer telling you that the #91 map was for the Domi and that if used would result in a far too lean state for regular 961 models. A dealer I spoke to last October told me that Norton said that the #90 map was designed for the Domi and that if was way rich for the standard models, and that using it would cause loss of cylinder lubrication, and possible damage.

Like you I hope we can get to the truth about these bikes so that we can all enjoy owning and riding them as problem free as any other motorcycle.

All I can say is, the bike was hard starting, power surging to 2200 at idle, severe enough vibration at 4800-5300 rpm with map 76. With 90, it starts right up with no pre fueling or throttle holding, press the starter, goes to about 2000 for 2 seconds, backs down to 1150 and stays. Period. No more vibes and no more surging, ever, at the light. Even after a hard ride. Took the plugs out. They are perfect.Who can argue with that success?

This is good info. Can someone repost the 09x dyno screen shots please?

Also, if you talk about a map just don't post who you got it from. Don't want to cause trouble here.

Thanks in advance.

Richard, The Dommi has a freer flowing air box and the highest flowing exhaust of all the 961's and there fore requires the richest map not the leanest!!!

When I play with maps I do pulls in all gears and throttle settings and look for lag, surging, flatspots, popping and pinging! The stock map and 70 series fail.

I too like Britfan60 do plug runs at low, mid and full throttle. The stock maps are way lean and 70's only slightly better, 90's are closer to ideal!

I also have access to Aerospace quality, calibrated, exhaust gas temperature sensors. 90 runs cooler then 70 which is cooler then stock.

The stock maps are optimized for emmissions not performances.

The dealer that recommended 90 series maps has a dyno and wideband O2 sensors and can plot AFR's. They have been tuning bikes for forty years and hold several world titles, they know what they are doing and still recommend 90.

You correctly mentioned the huge legalities, did you notice that Norton only objected to these maps 2 weeks after the multi billion dollar VW scandal!

Agreed ..

This is fantastic educated info. Thanks guys. Keep it coming.

I only have experience with the stock map that was installed on my 961 SE when it was shipped from the factory on March 31, 2015, and the upgrade installed by my no-longer-referred-to-by-name-or-initials dealer, who installed the #91 map when I sent him my ECU after installing an aftermarket exhaust system (including x-pipe), with about 700 miles on the bike. That map choice was their decision, not a request made by me! I actually had to ask them what map they installed so I would have the record. The #91 has been a GREAT map from a performance and starting viewpoint, a night and day difference from the stock map, and so far the engine seems to like it after running about 2,500 miles since installation. The bike ran pretty lean on the factory map (blued up the headers very quickly) but seems to run less lean, although not rich, with the #91 map. I've had no contact from the dealer indicating they installed an incorrect map. I suspect this has more to do with emissions than anything else, but I will contact the dealer and see what they say, which I would guess will be nothing. Again, this is good info to be discussing.

Agreed ...

Agreed 2x

I forgot to mention that we can "see" everything the ECU sees, remember the scan thread from this summer! It is a great tool for qualifying new maps!

You guys say you want more, don't get me started! Triumph is introducing 5 new Bonnevilles for 2016. These will be Euro 4 compliant which is about 25% or more stricter on emissions then our Euro 3 961's. They have already launched one model and though it makes more torque then the '15 it has less horsepower despite a larger engine and watercooling. Yes less HP with a larger engine and watercooling. They have not released specs on the other 4 models and many over at the Triumph forum speculate it is because of more dismal numbers. If the numbers were good they would already be bragging right! They are going BS over there!
Early testers are reporting throttle lag at the low end, a sign of poor fueling!

Many current model bikes will be dis-continued by 2017 because they cannot comply with Euro 4. Others will be un-recognizeable and neutered!.

This may be for bikes what hot rod cars went thru, when late 60's and early 70's 300-450HP models went to 170-300HP by the mid seventies due to emissions!

Part of Euro 4 is anti-tampering and if you think we have to jump thru hoops now to get our bikes to run right, just wait!!!

If there is a new model you just have to have I say buy it now! The used market may go sky high also!

That's one way of looking at it.
The other way is the new 900 makes 22% more power than the old bike does right in the range where one rides.
Everyone who has ridden it, including Alan Cathcart, loves the bike and loves the level of power output. 72 MPG is nice too, along with a 10,000 mile service interval, including oil changes. For a $9,000 entry level Retro bike it's probably a bullseye hit for Triumph.

Maybe Euro 4 isn't so bad after all?

Glen
future triumph customer service rep

Took my bike out today. Wishing the whole time I could try 091. But had a blast. The bike handles so well, looks so great and sounds amazing.

Merry Christmas Guys.

Merry Christmas to All!

I'm the guy from Texas mentioned above. Briefly, my 961 was delivered in July '15. It had poor cold starting and had to be really hot before I could open the throttle without it spluttering badly. Even when hot, it had surging between 3,000 and 5,000 revs. I have the X-pipe and aftermarket silencers which were installed by the dealer, and sound fantastic. I was repeatedly assured by the dealership that I had the correct map, I assume #77. I knew this was potentially a good bike, so out of frustration and not knowing what else to do, I took it to be dyno-mapped. It turned out that the original map installed caused the bike to run extremely lean and hot with markedly reduced power (pre and post tuning power curves attached below). So much so that fuel was added up to 37% at some points and removed by 10% at others. The bike has been totally transformed by using a Power Commander V and the new map; when cold starting you still have to hold the throttle open about 5% for about 1 minute, but then it idles normally. The bike is now extremely responsive to throttle inputs throughout the rev range, with much more power and no surging. There's no doubt that it runs richer than before, but I'm still getting about 43 mpg, which is not bad. Having gone through this exercise, my advice to those having my bike's original problems is to make sure the dealer has installed map #77, and it may even be worth re-flashing the ECU by sending it to them. If all this fails to improve the performance, send me a private message and I'll email you the map and technical details about installing a PCV and uploading the map (although I don't pretend to be a tuning expert). A PCV costs about U.S.$350 on-line and I won't charge for the map. Don't give up, because this is a great bike when given a chance.

candyman.errol said:

... There's no doubt that it runs richer than before, but I'm still getting about 43 mpg, which is not bad. Having gone through this exercise, my advice to those having my bike's original problems is to make sure the dealer has installed map #77, and it may even be worth re-flashing the ECU by sending it to them. If all this fails to improve the performance, send me a private message and I'll email you the map and technical details about installing a PCV and uploading the map (although I don't pretend to be a tuning expert). A PCV costs about U.S.$350 on-line and I won't charge for the map. Don't give up, because this is a great bike when given a chance.

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I don't remember reading this thread this far. How timely since I just got word that the break-in has been completed on my 961 using map #77. I did inquire whether the bike exhibited any noticeable issues, but have not heard back yet. They did mention that they are still waiting to hear from the Norton folks about a remedy for the dreaded "oil-in-the-airbox" issue. That's alright. Time is on my side. :lol:

I just woke up my bike, probably too soon, but it's been really warm in the mountains of Utah. Had the ecu reflashed with map 90 over the winter. My bike has the DT pipes but still retains the cats. Fired right up first time and idle was spot on. Seems that that flat spot I had around 3700-4000 rpm is gone. Come on spring!!!