Li Battery failure

rpatton · Sep 25, 2013

worntorn said:
The battery on the second bike is a 9pb/eq. This was the suggested battery to replace a 7 ah lead acid. We now know it is not adequate. Why rate something as a 9 amphour lead acid equivalent when it is not? At best this is very misleading advertising. Is it likely that the salespeople for these products all know that the pb/eq number is pretty much meaningless unless you divide by three? Or do they sell based on that number, which is the intention of the number in the first place, pb/eq, lead/equivalent?
Glen

Amperage: 6.9 Amps/Hour
Lead Acid Equivalent Amperage: 20 Pb-eq/Ah
Burst Cranking Amps: 410amps

These spec's are from Ballistic's 12 cell. They pretty much tell it all, at least they list the true Amps/Hour rating and the
"Pb/EQ" rating. It's about 3:1. There are two characteristics that make Lithium batteries unique. Low internal resistance and low capacity. The low internal resistance means they have very fast charge and discharge rates compared to lead/acid. That's where the "410 Burst Cranking Amps" comes from. In a stroke of genius someone wondered what capacity lead/acid battery would it take to match that cranking power. "Pb/Eq" was born. For most people on modern bikes with 400-500watt alternators that probably have better charging profiles than our dead till idleX2 units the Lithium is a fine match.

worntorn · Sep 25, 2013

Agreed, they are designed to work with modern high capacity charging systems, not our systems.

The pb/eq rating is quite misleading. The companies use this to say their battery is the equivalent to that size of lead acid battery which weighs a ton, just look at the massive weight savings, buy our battery!
If they instead compare this battery to a 7ah lead acid, suddenly their battery is not such a giant weight saver. And the cost per AH for the LI gets very ugly. So I can see why they like the pb/eq number as opposed to the old standard, AH. I dont think Shorai even lists AH, they would prefer to talk Pb/Eq only.

As far as the claims of double and triple the life as compared to lead acid, time will tell. With my 20 pb/eq Ballistic failing after 18 months and all of the other similar failures I read about, I am skeptical.

Glen

pete.v · Sep 26, 2013

pete.v said:
I put in a 14ah Shorai replacing the 14 ah AGM because that is what matches up to the 200 watt stator and 200 watt Podtronic unit. I believe a balance between components is the key to reliability and functionality of the system. No e-start but can run the light all the time without much concern like before.

I still have the AGM that i use for my timing light and it still reads 12.4 without a charge since March. Oh well, it's there if i need it.

I just got back from a nice 50 mile jaunt in the country. Lights on all the time, always. The lamp is a Sylvania Siverstar h6024 right off the Advance Auto parts shelf. This lamp has an awesome spread with 55/ 65 wattage. No highway, mostly 3500 to 4200 rpm. Some stop and go. Drove up into the garage, shut it down and check the voltage. 13.2, perfect. What a great little battery.

swooshdave · Oct 3, 2013

I pulled this from the bevelhead mailing list. Good info.

Unlike most of the competition, all of our Lithium (LiFePO4) batteries do indeed include a built-in
cell balancing circuit. This circuit monitors the voltage of each individual cell. If it detects a
difference in voltage between the cells, it will automatically correct the difference. One other
thing to note is that during the manufacturing of the batteries we match every cell that goes into
each battery. Because of the tight tolerance that is used in matching the cells, the cell balancing
board typically does need to balance the cells until after 1000+ charge/discharge cycles. Even
though the cells do not need balancing, the circuit will activate during charging above 14.4V. If
you feel the top of the battery you will notice it is warm when the voltage is above 14.4V. This is
the heat that is generated by the balancing circuit. The bottom of the case, where the cells are,
stays cool to the touch.

If you have any more questions about our products please do not hesitate to ask.

Best regards,

Larry Gordon
VP of Engineering
Deltran Corporation
801 E. International Speedway Blvd.
Deland FL 32724
Email: larryg@batterytender.com

worntorn · Oct 3, 2013

I would be interested to know if these Deltran batteries can handle spending time in the mid 12 volt range without imploding or voiding warranty.

Glen

swooshdave · Oct 3, 2013

worntorn said:
I would be interested to know if these Deltran batteries can handle spending time in the mid 12 volt range without imploding or voiding warranty.

Glen

I'd suggest emailing Larry (email provided) to ask him.

worntorn · Oct 3, 2013

Will do Dave, thanks for the contact.

Glen

Hobot · Oct 4, 2013

When ya pact space ship power chemistry in compact spaces ya can expect some space age issues handling their failures. 85 kw is about equivalent to 175 hp. Fire in Tesla Li cells after road hazard injured them. Firefighters need a crash course on Li and water reactions. But hey all motorcyclers are irrational rationalizing risk takers so let's power on up ...
http://phys.org/news/2013-10-tesla-car- ... ttery.html

worntorn · Oct 4, 2013

Larry from Deltran got back to me. His answer lines up with my experience and confirms what I suspected. I explained the problems I have had with the Ballistic Battery and asked if his battery would "live OK" in the 12.5 to 13 volt zone.

Hello Glen,

Unfortunately the answer to your question is no. Nobody’s 12.8V LiFePO4 battery will work in that situation. These batteries need to see at least 13.6V to maintain a full charge. Anything below that will not ever charge the battery to 100%. You end up with much less capacity that you need. The state of charge of a LiFePO4 battery sitting at 13V is only 30%. At 12.75V it is only 10% charged.

Lead acid batteries are your best bet because your system’s voltage is just enough to keep them fairly charged.

Best regards,

Hobot · Oct 18, 2013

Part of the reason Li batteries fail demonstrated. Poke holes in em or impact enough fails em too like any battery just more so.
http://phys.org/news/2013-10-lithium-ion-batteries.html

Hobot · Feb 3, 2014

Li didn't work out well on another old Brit Iron cycle just to keep aware of scope of experiences with new age current chemistry. Ironic space issue.

Code:

Following up on this old issue for the sake of the archives. Turns out there's nothing wrong with my alternator or Podtronics regulator/rectifier. Its that POS lithium iron battery! Either it has a bad cell or it can't cope with the temperature in the polar vortex we've been hit with.  Anyway,  hooking up the old lead acid battery solves everything. Trouble is I can only use that battery sitting on a table next to the bike as there's no room in the battery compartment anymore for the old battery battery (with my fuse box mounted to one side of the battery tray). Anyone know of a 6-8 AH 12v lead acid battery that's 3.5" square and 4" tall?

-Jesse

Li Battery failure

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