Li Battery failure

I posted earlier about the problems I have had with a small Ballistic Li battery. It has a lead acid equivalent rating of 9 ah, (they call it 9 pb/eq),so the salesman felt it would have more than adequate capacity to replace a 7 AH lead acid battery that had been doing the job without problem for several years. After installing the small Ballistic, I ran out of juice several times until I learned that the 9pb/eq rating is totally misleading, the battery is actually about a 3 amphour battery. So for now I carry a spare lead acid battery in the top box of that bike.
For the Commando I bought a much bigger Ballistic some time ago. It has a 20 pb/eq rating and capacity has not been a problem, though it is nowhere near the orignal 14 amphour lead acid, it is probably more like 7or 8amphours.
Besides the dubious advertised weight for power advantage, according to the supplier, these batteries were estimated to last for ten years or more. This one just limped thru it's second season and now it's finished. Removed from the bike in a fully charged state it went from 13.6 volts to 11volts in about two weeks of sitting. The 11 is misleading as well, as soon as even a small load is applied it drops to 5.4volts. Not great for a $189.00 battery!
The cheapie $39 lead acid jobs typically last me about four or five years if kept charged thru the winter.

Glen

Another lesson learned..

This is what I've been reading of the minor down side of Li propaganda and for the major down side, do not store the failed Li inside of home. Fuel cells will be right around the corner and may use fuel in tank.

Probably not the battery's fault. More likely the salesman's fault. Improper battery for the application.

Dave, I have two Li batteries with problems. The small one still holds a charge, but is just too small for the job, as you say the salesman's fault (or my fault for not doing more research before buying)
The other Li battery is big enough for it's job, but no longer holds a charge. It is 18 months old. Ballistic lists ten years as normal battery life for these batteries, though the warranty period is just three years. It shouldbe covered by warranty, I have contacted them, will be interesting to see the response. My guess is they will replace it, might cost me some shipping to send the failed battery back tho. If I get a free replacement and get another 18 months use from it, that will be almost the equivalent of a typical inexpensive lead acid battery. And the weight, though advertised as being a tiny fraction of lead acid, is actually not much different when true capacity is compared.
All in all these Ballistic batteries are a good example of overly optimistic advertising hype, and I got sucked into it. As George Bush said " Fool me once and it's shame on you, fool me twice and it's shame on me...no you.... Well you get it.....you just can't fool me!"

Glen

Great TEMPORARY weight savings. Other than that, not reliable/durable enough for my street bikes. http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757934

You are right, although the weight savings was very temporary as now I carry a regular lead acid for back up, the bike is actually a little heavier than before I had the Li battery.
Another problem with Li batteries is that they do not like cool weather. Problems can start to show up in the 40s F, according to this thread. This is mainly an E start problem, but it can become a bigger problem if the sprag fails due to low output. This is a real problem with the modern Triumphs. Sprag failure on the pre 2000 model year T595 models generally means the bike gets parted out or scrapped.
Low battery output is also not a good thing for Estart Commando sprag engagement, plus there is the voltage drop/no ignition/EI problem to contend with.

http://www.triumph675.net/forum/showthread.php?t=60763

Got the answer from Ballistic, if I ship the old Battery to them and IF they decided to cover it with warranty, they will provide me with a new battery for 50% of retail plus shipping. This amounts to $104.00 plus about $20 to ship my old battery to them. There is no warranty on the replacement battery. So about $125.00 for a battery with zero warranty vs. the same item at various discount houses for 165.00 with a one year full replacement warranty.
After the problems I have had with their batteries, I wouldnt pay any actual money for either, however if a free replacement had been offered I would have certainly asked for it. If nothing else it would be nice to see if the second one could hold together for more than 18months.
So for the Commando it's back to a lead acid battery.
I might try a Shorai in the Vincent project bike since the battery in that bike sits under the rear cowl and there is very little room. If the Shorai is no better than the Ballistic, then I will be truly done with Li batteries.
Afterall, fool me three times and shame on. ??

Glen

I've had a 9AH Shorai in my bike for about a year with no problems so far, but too early to really tell.
Bike gets ridden pretty regularly with only maybe month max between rides and since it isn't an e-start its electrical demands arn't very great.
Have other forum members had a problem with them?

Lodge a complaint with Consumer Affairs - if you have such a thing ?
If their batteries are junk, their salespitch is faudulent and their customer service is rubbish, they don't deserve to stay in business ?

One other thing. Is this battery a Lithium ion, or Lithium iron type.
They are different....

Call these guys. They seem to know what they are doing.

http://www.batterystuff.com

I asked them about the Lithium Iron battery and they said that it's best suited for an electric start bike and recommended an AGM.

Also be careful when talking about battery types.

There are Lithium and Lithium Iron. Not the same thing, even though they sound similar.

It is a Lithium Iron battery which is a type of Lithium Ion battery. Not all Lithium Ion batteries are of the Iron variety, (LiFePo4) but all Lithium Iron batteries are considered to be Lithium Ion batteries, if that makes sense.

Glen

ugh, Ions, are atoms that have gained or lost electrons so become + or - charged. Electrons are said to be subatomic mater probability wave packet particles of essentially a single point like dimension, ie: light, mobile and tiny. Pb-sulfate batteries use an acid as the electrolyte/conductor so electrons are what move from plate to plate not lead atoms or crusty molecules, which can crust up and fall to bottom till shorting the cell plates. So all the internal battery and external power current is by electrons. LIthium atoms are the current carriers inside the cells not e-'s, which only whiz around out side wires load back to balance-feed the corrosion process that creates the electromotive force called voltage or potential. So iron or other elements can be used to accept the wandering Li ions and why the whole trouble arises. Li is small enough to get inside iron atom lattice and that causes the electrode to swell, sort of like re-bar in old concrete. When lead battery internal shorted it just goes flat as it vents H2. In Li ion battery electrodes begin internal shorting by chemical swelling or exterior shocks/vibes til a fractal like conductive matrix forms and begins to combust with the water till its a Li Iron torch/bomb. I've read that those who camp a ways off on theirs will never ever again use current or foreseen Li ion chemistry. Boeing is feeling like Norton did issuing Combats that soon got nicked named Bombs. Boeing had to armour encase and add special pumps to vent and other stuff so Li not only cost way more than lead they weight as much or more to get the same job done. Great - one race battery though so just have a few on hand with dedicated 'puterized charger to keep em topped up.

pictures here
https://www.google.com/search?q=li+ion+ ... 7&dpr=1.09

A.G.M. = vibration resistant. Nortons = shaking.

8 AH Yuasa AGM from Clubman for $67 or the cheap one for $58. Mine's still holding 12.6V after 3 years. And that's been off the charger all summer. Not that I'm plugging Frank, but I thought it was a pretty good deal.

Dave

Dave, that sounds good to me right about now.
Here are the conditions for the Ballistic Warranty, quite different than my Costco no questions asked car and truckbattery warranty:
Conditions not covered under warranty:Abuse or physical damage of any kind including damage to terminals.Applications not listed on the Ballistic website or using the EVO2 as a main power source.Hard short of the terminals or BMS port.Damage from emersion in liquid.Cell damage as a result of being drained below 30% of capacity.Over charging or damage as a result of a defective charger, charging settings or charging system.Damage from use in excess of cranking capacity.The 3 Year Limited Warranty is on a pro-rated basis based on the original date of purchase.1 – 12 Months – Free Replacement12 – 24 Months – 50% discount from retail24 – 36 Months – 25% discount from retails


The one that got my notice was "Cell damage as a result of being drained below 30% of capacity"
This happens at about 13 volts with a Li battery. Daves 12.6 volt lead acid battery, which is perfect for that battery, would be a near dead and warranty voided Li battery. Apparently the discharge leaves an electronic telltale of some sort, so even if the warranty had some real value, I doubt they would approve of it in my case. I know the battery has been below 13 volts several times.

Basically your warranty is void if you run either the Shorai or the Ballistic at the voltages most of our systems run at for much of the time

Glen, The ADVrider thread quotes a caution about a certain electronic rect/reg not being compatible with Shorai lithium batteries. No one followed it up with an explanation that I could find. Could be there are other similar problems out there. Like maybe with Ballistic too. They don't tell which part suffers, maybe both? Batterystuff in Oregon have some smarter tech's if you want to give them a call, or check with J117 on that thread, he's a tech there. Could be that your batteries are being damaged by an undisclosed charging system incompatibility.

"Part #: EDL-VoltRect

Combination Electronic Voltage Regulator & Rectifier. Replaces BOSCH 3-phase diode board / rectifier and voltage regulator. Advanced metal ceramic heat transfer technology replaces the BMW R Airhead & Moto Guzzi diode board system. Mounts remotely outside the alternator cover for high reliability and performance. Not Compatible with lithium iron batteries as supplied by Shorai."

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.p ... 934&page=2

http://www.batterystuff.com/?gclid=CMyg ... Qgod1D8Arw

I did a google search and found a huge number of complaints and issues with Li motorcycle batteries, both Shorai and Ballistic.
I think the main problem is that they are not really a 12volt battery, and they are being sold for 12volt systems.
In fact they must never be allowed to get below 12.886 volts according to Shorai. This is noted on the Shorai chart above. Not many 12volt systems keep the battery at this high level, certainly not our old charging systems, but also the systems on modern bikes.
I did a 400 mile ride on the 05 Daytona last week. Checked the battery voltage afterward and it was 12.6, low enough to void the warranty on a Li battery. Fortunately it has a regular lead acid battery, so it is not a problem.

Glen

Shorai Motorcycle Battery vs. Ballistic Motorcycle ... - webBikeWorld
www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-battery ... ery/shor...‎
Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) type motorcycle batteries have started ..... I know a couple guys who batteries started on fire and after the research I have done...

Motorcycle Batteries .. AGM, GEL, Wet, Lithium Iron Phosphate ...
www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17827842‎
Jan 21, 2012 - there's a report of Shorai battery catching on fire? ... Lithium iron phosphate cells in prismatic or cylinder shape are the most stable of all li-ion ...

A kicker Commando with 120 watt Lucas charger only needs 1.2 aH alarm gell cell size to start and then ~ 1800 rpm to keep it up even on high beam and dragging rear brake light creeping after dark. Must blip though if caught in rain in city rush hour stop&go. On Brit Iron list we got another report of failed to hold charge Li battery in some clunker non Norton. I mentioned not to keep the dead thing inside, just in case.

I think this discussion is going astray for want of proper understanding of vehicle electrical systems, which are nominally called 12V but in reality run at around 13.2V. This is determined by the charging system voltage, not the battery voltage. I can't see how anyone can conclude that vehicles have 12V systems so therefore you can't use a Li-ion battery. That is just plain wrong. These batteries are after all designed and sold specifically for a wide range of vehicles.
The choice of voltage regulator though is important. If you have old iron fitted with a zener regulator then you are asking for trouble. Just look at the test parameters specified in the workshop manual to see what I mean. This is especially a problem if the zener is old because the threshold at which it operates will shift. I have ruined lead acid batteries in a short time with old zener regulators in play, never mind a Li-ion battery. It is interesting to note that you've found a modern regulator that is incompatible with Li-ion batteries; that's a new one on me and is some cause for concern.

I have Shorai 18Ah batteries on two bikes; a Commando with an Alton e-start and a Trident with an e-start. Both have run absolutely fine for well over a year. Both bikes have low cost solid state regulator modules (from Paul Goff in UK, his AREGONE product). One time my Shorai did become heavily discharged when it was overused without charging by a bike workshop during construction of one of the bikes. I did nurse it back to full operation with a variable power supply and have had no problem since. I guess I was a little lucky, but it does show that you will not necessarily destroy a Li-ion battery if you let it discharge too far.

So actually I am a fan of these batteries and think these anti posts are unfair to the technology. Maybe I am more sympathetic because I am an electronics engineer and understand how to specify and use them. Even so, if you use a decent regulator system on the bike and you have the correct charger for the battery I think the inexpert user should have no problem.

David