Layshaft bearing failure

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ok spoke to Fred and he's taking care of everything I need. Thanks for all the help and advice! Christian
 
A recent conversation with Angela & Mick Hemmings, I was told that Mick (since 1972) is up to box #760 (new & used) where he is fitting the German/Portugal FAG 6203 TB ball bearing (Polyamide cage). Both bearings are of the same high quality standards from FAG, Angela said they don't fit brass caged bearings, also its the steel cage on the original bearing that failed as it wasnt up to the job!! I deal with Hemmings,as they provide a terrific service and the extra information you get is so good!
Its interesting to google FAG 6203 TB, the first four links provided (on my puter) are to here, "Access Norton", its well documented!!
Foxy
 
Foxy said:
A recent conversation with Angela & Mick Hemmings, I was told that Mick (since 1972) is up to box #760 (new & used) where he is fitting the German/Portugal FAG 6203 TB ball bearing (Polyamide cage). Both bearings are of the same high quality standards from FAG, Angela said they don't fit brass caged bearings, also its the steel cage on the original bearing that failed as it wasnt up to the job!! I deal with Hemmings,as they provide a terrific service and the extra information you get is so good!
Its interesting to google FAG 6203 TB, the first four links provided (on my puter) are to here, "Access Norton", its well documented!!
Foxy
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+1 I am one of those crazy s-o-b's that pulls a brand new Fag NJ203E.TVP2.C3, along with the damn shims, for the good quality ball bearing 6203TVH.C3. Fraction of the cost, fraction of the hassle, complete confidence.
Here is the new old bearing.
Layshaft bearing failure
 
For those in a small town area like me, I thought I'd offer up an online US source for owners seeking the FAG ball bearing recommended by Mick Hemmings.

It's for sale at a moped/scooter store Treatland for $40 and $2.94 in shipping to anywhere in the US.

They take a light-hearted attitude to the products they sell, but have a good reputation, and delivered one promptly (ordered on Sunday, delivered Thursday -- San Francisco, CA to my little town in Florida).

Here's their product description: "special reinforced super version of the 6203 C3 bearing by FAG of portugal. for rebuilding e50 (one speed) engines on any puch moped. also one of the bearings for peugeot engines. jawa motors? tomos A35, garelli NOI +VIP and others ! this thing better be good cause it costs a small fortune!"

The box is labeled 6203TB.P63, and I can verify it looks identical to the photos I've seen here and elsewhere (so I didn't see a need to post another, but could if someone felt it critical).
 
pvisseriii said:
I am one of those crazy s-o-b's that pulls a brand new Fag NJ203E.TVP2.C3, along with the damn shims, for the good quality ball bearing 6203TVH.C3. Fraction of the cost, fraction of the hassle, complete confidence.
Here is the new old bearing.
Layshaft bearing failure
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Must agree you are crazy to pull a NJ203E for ANY ball bearing!
 
nortonspeed said:
pvisseriii said:
I am one of those crazy s-o-b's that pulls a brand new Fag NJ203E.TVP2.C3, along with the damn shims, for the good quality ball bearing 6203TVH.C3. Fraction of the cost, fraction of the hassle, complete confidence.

Must agree you are crazy to pull a NJ203E for ANY ball bearing!
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Digressive , aggressive, progressive.......take your pick. If the shaft was meant to float, it would have a thrust washer somewhere. Again, just an opinion.

Anyhow, I will remain open minded to a point. That point would be to shim, if applicable at all, from behind the race. What is your take on that.
 
pvisseriii said:
If the shaft was meant to float, it would have a thrust washer somewhere
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Designed in the stone age at that time probably not a bad concept. A roller bearing with E specs can take far more load then any other ball bearing and provides easy removal of your layshaft/gears. Apart from a nice tight kickstart shaft exaggerated shimming of the layshaft serves nothing. Actually your gear cluster is better off with some layshaft side float for smooth engagement. A good quality ball bearing might be sufficient for road use but never ever again I will race a Norton without that roller bearing (please don't ask me why).
 
I read lots of bad stories on the layshaft B. I redid the gearbox and replaced and lubed what was necessary, now it shifts effortlessly!!!! I think it was worth my time. Rob
 
Layshaft bearing failure


Mick's own words quoted from his Gearbox Servicing NOC DVD as he discusses the layshaft bearing:

"...now, roller bearings are OK, but, what I don't like is that they can support vertically but they won't take any end load, and there's a lot of end-thrust on a gearbox -especially when you are pushing it into gear. The bearing that I prefer...[showing the 6203 TB ball bearing]...is a very very special ball bearing, I've been using this for twenty years, and it's been used by everybody from Wayne Gardner to Barry Sheene in all the six-speed gearboxes I build, and 'touch wood' we've never had a failure yet, so that is the bearing that I prefer to use...."
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L.A.B. said:
Layshaft bearing failure


Mick's own words quoted from his Gearbox Servicing NOC DVD as he discusses the layshaft bearing:

"...now, roller bearings are OK, but, what I don't like is that they can support vertically but they won't take any end load, and there's a lot of end-thrust on a gearbox -especially when you are pushing it into gear. The bearing that I prefer...[showing the 6203 TB ball bearing]...is a very very special ball bearing, I've been using this for twenty years, and it's been used by everybody from Wayne Gardner to Barry Sheene in all the six-speed gearboxes I build, and 'touch wood' we've never had a failure yet, so that is the bearing that I prefer to use...."
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I only can conclude Mick was not informed well enough as roller bearings with a shouldered inner race definitely can take plenty end load.
 
What about the load on the other end?
Ya know, I gotta say that shifting these boxes in such a manner (under load,racing, no clutch, etc, etc) to cause such lateral force against bearings and race shoulders is just asking for it. What is it, something like 35 HP these were designed for? It's kinda hard to think that this box would be raced at all much less abused on the street and be expected to hold up.
 
nortonspeed said:
I only can conclude Mick was not informed well enough as roller bearings with a shouldered inner race definitely can take plenty end load.
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Well, Mick has been successfully building and racing Nortons for 40+ years and he prefers the ball bearing over the roller for both road and race applications.

http://www.norton.norvil.net/mickh.htm
 
L.A.B. said:
nortonspeed said:
I only can conclude Mick was not informed well enough as roller bearings with a shouldered inner race definitely can take plenty end load.
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Well, Mick has been successfully building and racing Nortons for 40+ years and he prefers the ball bearing over the roller for both road and race applications.

http://www.norton.norvil.net/mickh.htm
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I don't argue with that but ya know there is always room for improvement. Give me one good technical reason why I should go back to a ball bearing :?:
 
nortonspeed said:
I don't argue with that but ya know there is always room for improvement. Give me one good technical reason why I should go back to a ball bearing :?:
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I suppose it depends if you consider using a ball bearing to be retrograde step?

Mick recommends the TB ball bearing over the roller, and obviously he has his reasons for saying so.

http://www.mickhemmings.com/
Roller.....(NOT RECOMMENDED)....067710
SPECIAL RACING BALL BEARING, THE ANSWER!...TX1366
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L.A.B. you are repeating yourself. I know what Mick recommends. His reason does technically not stand. Again: give me a TECHNICAL reason why we should use a ball bearing over a roller bearing. Fact is a roller bearing with E specs and shouldered inner race can take far more load in every way than any ball bearing will.
 
nortonspeed said:
L.A.B. you are repeating yourself.
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Only out of necessity.


nortonspeed said:
I know what Mick recommends. His reason does technically not stand. Again: give me a TECHNICAL reason why we should use a ball bearing over a roller bearing. Fact is a roller bearing with E specs and shouldered inner race can take far more load in every way than any ball bearing will.
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If you prefer the roller bearing that's fair enough, and if I must repeat what I said yet again, Mick obviously has his reasons for specifying the ball bearing and I see no reason to question his judgement so I suggest you take it up with Mick?
 
The advantage of a ball over a roller in tranny and crank application is balls allow more shaft end flex from torque and rpm w/o bind into case bore or the shaft than a roller element bearing. The down side is they wear out faster than a roller if that's a worry. The past hi rpm Norton racers used roller on DS and 11 ball on the TS. This was how past Ms Peel was set up inside in '03, but over rev took out other parts so gave bearings to Wesley who siezed his worn out orginal bottom end and has run them fine over a year 10,000+ miles.

Ball bearings versus roller bearings
The main difference in the performance of these two bearing types is that ball bearings have lower friction than roller bearings, while roller bearings have higher load carrying capacity.
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http://www.skf.com/skf/support/html/dic ... =b&lang=en
 
hobot said:
The advantage of a ball over a roller in tranny and crank application is balls allow more shaft end flex from torque and rpm w/o bind into case bore or the shaft than a roller element bearing.
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True in case of a standard roller but thats where the roller with E specification comes in with their barrel shaped rollers. Remember the failing standard type roller bearings of the Combat Commando crankshaft. From then Norton used only the barrel shaped roller type bearings (306E) to cope with the flexing crankshaft at higher torque.
 
Wow! Why all the friction ( pun; get it?) over roller or ball bearings? Run what you want , it's your bike! Isnt there an oil thread somewhere?
 
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