How do you keep batteries from stranding you?

Yellow_Cad · Jan 8, 2013

OK, batteries don't last forever. I guess they have a life of 3 to 7 years depending on the particular battery and its care. I just had two go out on me close to the same time. The one with the older Boyer system almost stranded me and the one with the Pazon system did strand me. Both batteries were 4 or 5 years old. Both batteries were AGM. Both batteries were on a tender 95% of the time. Both batteries showed 13 plus volts with a volt meter the day they died. I believe both died of a dead cell. My question is what signs or tests are there to know when a battery is going in that direction rather than getting stranded?

comnoz · Jan 8, 2013

The only AGM batteries that I have personal long term experience with have been Oddessys. The two I have used both died slowly- one after 8 years and the other after 10 years. The ten year was on my e-start and it got slow cranking. The other was in my FI bike and I noticed the headlight was starting to get dim after about 1 minute without the motor running. I bought two more Oddessys to replace them.

A battery tender will shorten the battery life if it is left on indefinitely. For storage I use a timer that runs the tender about 1 hour a day. Before I got a timer I would plug the tender in one day a week.

To help prevent internal shorts in the battery make sure it is firmly mounted preferably with a bit of rubber cushion. If the battery is able to move and vibrate on it's mounts it will hurry it to it's demise.

If the charging system on your bike does not keep the battery at full capacity then run the charger after you ride long enough to bring it back to full charge- when the indicator switches to float mode you know it is at full charge. Letting a battery set overnight at less than a full charge does permanent damage.

With a Zener voltage regulator. I would suggest a switch on the battery lead to disconnect the bike when you use a charger. The battery may never get to full capacity with the Zeners connected. Jim

mike996 · Jan 8, 2013

13+V? Was this with the charger running or shortly after disconnecting it? Fully charged lead/acid batts will read around 12.6. A voltage reading taken with a charger attached or soon after disconnecting it has no relation to the actual condition of the battery. It needs to have been disconnected from the charger (or the engine cannot have been running) for at least an hour to get an accurate reading.

A dead cell would result in the static battery voltage being quite low - probably less than 11V but if the reading was taken just after disconnecting a charger, the voltage could appear to be OK. A badly sulfated batt will test OK voltage-wise but have no capacity. IOW, it might read fully charged (12.6V) but not be able to spin a starter - though it could run an ignition system on a kick-start bike just fine. I don't know if AGMs are subject to sulfating as are flooded batts but since flooded, gel, and AGM are all lead/acid batts I would think the same physics apply.

Yellow_Cad · Jan 8, 2013

comnoz said:
The only AGM batteries that I have personal long term experience with have been Oddessys. The two I have used both died slowly- one after 8 years and the other after 10 years. The ten year was on my e-start and it got slow cranking. The other was in my FI bike and I noticed the headlight was starting to get dim after about 1 minute without the motor running. I bought two more Oddessys to replace them.

A battery tender will shorten the battery life if it is left on indefinitely. For storage I use a timer that runs the tender about 1 hour a day. Before I got a timer I would plug the tender in one day a week.

To help prevent internal shorts in the battery make sure it is firmly mounted preferably with a bit of rubber cushion. If the battery is able to move and vibrate on it's mounts it will hurry it to it's demise.

If the charging system on your bike does not keep the battery at full capacity then run the charger after you ride long enough to bring it back to full charge- when the indicator switches to float mode you know it is at full charge. Letting a battery set overnight at less than a full charge does permanent damage.

With a Zener voltage regulator. I would suggest a switch on the battery lead to disconnect the bike when you use a charger. The battery may never get to full capacity with the Zeners connected. Jim

Lots of good ideas. Thanks.

BillT · Jan 8, 2013

In my experience, sealed batteries tend to die rather suddenly, usually from a single cell shorting out. I use the old-fashioned batteries in the Nortons - they tend to give you a warning. I have to use an AGM in the Triumph, as the battery lays on its side under the seat.

My wife's 2004 Mini went through 5 batteries in the 7 years we owned it - 3 were replaced under warranty, the other two were pro-rated. On a Mini, you know when the battery goes bad, because every system on the car goes haywire. In 3 out of the 5 cases, the car was stranded, though 2 times was in the garage.

My '04 truck had the original battery die just 4 months ago - with no warning.

Yellow_Cad · Jan 8, 2013

mike996 said:
13+V? Was this with the charger running or shortly after disconnecting it? Fully charged lead/acid batts will read around 12.6. A voltage reading taken with a charger attached or soon after disconnecting it has no relation to the actual condition of the battery. It needs to have been disconnected from the charger (or the engine cannot have been running) for at least an hour to get an accurate reading.

A dead cell would result in the static battery voltage being quite low - probably less than 11V but if the reading was taken just after disconnecting a charger, the voltage could appear to be OK. A badly sulfated batt will test OK voltage-wise but have no capacity. IOW, it might read fully charged (12.6V) but not be able to spin a starter - though it could run an ignition system on a kick-start bike just fine. I don't know if AGMs are subject to sulfating as are flooded batts but since flooded, gel, and AGM are all lead/acid batts I would think the same physics apply.

One battery was reading 13.2 after sitting on the bench all night. I put a battery tester on it and with load, it immediately indiacted that it was useless. I took the other battery into a Batteries Plus and it read 12.9 but as soon as the put their tester on it (before pushing the test button), it went right down to 11 volts.

swooshdave · Jan 8, 2013

Which tender do you have?

ashman · Jan 8, 2013

All I can say is put a Joe Hunt maggie on your bike and you will never have to worry about a battery ever again :lol:

frankdamp · Jan 8, 2013

+1 for a magneto. My "company hack" 650ss had magneto ignition and I never had a problem with it.

DogT · Jan 8, 2013

You can get a Yuasa smart charger for about $20 including shipping if you look around. I believe they are good, but that's an opinion. I have good luck with batteries except the JD tractor. Miata Panasonic AGM lasted 11 years. Still have the original in my 03 Dakota, 08 Saab died just under warranty, 07 Mini still original. JD dies in about 2-3 years because it doesn't get used enough and it's cold in the barn. I now have one of the larger Yuasa smart chargers on it to see if it makes any difference. It has 2 - 800 amp batteries, diesel you know and when it's cold it's really hard to start, especially if I don't or can't plug in the coolant heater. The bike and lawn mower about this time of year I bring them inside and charge them once a month.

Dave
69S

stockie2 · Jan 8, 2013

Yes I had a similar experience, but latter found a wire shorting on the frame. Another way to try and eliminate a battery stopping you in your tracks, without fitting a magneto ignition, is to fit a Boyer POWER-BOX . I found they have a model that incorporates electronics to work the charging light correctly, and they have a capacitor to allow the engine to run without a battery. I think you need to disconnect the battery lead and complete the circuit without the battery. So a simple jumper in the tool tray could be a good breakdown feature?
This unit also cleans up the charging circuit to avoid over charging, that I suspect was going on with my original 30+ year old components?

HTH Cheers Richard

Yellow_Cad · Jan 8, 2013

swooshdave said:
Which tender do you have?

One is a small Yuasa tender and the other is a Battery Tender Plus.

Yellow_Cad · Jan 8, 2013

With a new battery in the bike, I'm showing 15 volts at the battery at 2000 rpm. Is that OK or too much?

comnoz · Jan 8, 2013

Yellow_Cad said:
With a new battery in the bike, I'm showing 15 volts at the battery at 2000 rpm. Is that OK or too much?

If that is the maximum reading I would say you are OK. Most voltmeters don't give a very true reading when there is a pulsing DC voltage involved. The only way to know for sure if the Zeners are conducting at the correct voltage is with a scope. Otherwise just check the battery voltage about 1/2 hour after running to see if the battery is at full capacity. Jim

Nortiboy · Jan 8, 2013

Yellow_Cad said:
With a new battery in the bike, I'm showing 15 volts at the battery at 2000 rpm. Is that OK or too much?

Check it at rest. The meter may read a little high.

rick in seattle · Jan 9, 2013

Like many on this forum, I have several two-wheeled and four-wheeled vehicles at two different locations. To preserve battery life, I began keeping each one on a Battery Tender Plus; a quick-connect pigtale is attached to every battery. Before long, I simply got into the habit of connecting the tender as soon as I turned off the petcocks and ignition. While Battery Tender recommends this practice for the obvious benefit of selling more tenders, I came across the following article on BikeWebWorld:

http://www.webbikeworld.com/r3/motorcyc ... y-charger/

which advocates this practice. So I was surprised to see Jim Comstock recommend against keeping the bikes on smart tenders full time, stating that this would shorten battery lifetime. As I'm inclined to take Jim's remarks seriously, I would greatly appreciate a bit more detail from Jim. I've got 6 batteries at risk here.

Torontonian · Jan 9, 2013

Yes I would like to know why. A regular Optimate user.

Yellow_Cad · Jan 9, 2013

Another question for Jim: when you say, "With a Zener voltage regulator. I would suggest a switch on the battery lead to disconnect the bike when you use a charger. The battery may never get to full capacity with the Zeners connected. Jim"

What is full capacity and how many volts should a hooked up, resting battery read?

comnoz · Jan 9, 2013

There is some disagreement about full charge voltage on AGM cells between manufacturers. I believe Oddessy says 12.8 volts after the surface charge has dissipated is 100%.
It requires a charging voltage of 15.1 volts to bring a battery to this level. Usually the Zener has begun to conduct by this point so a small charger will never reach that level if the Zener is in the circuit.

Differences of a few tenth of a volt are major when it comes to the percentage of charge in a battery at no load. IE- 12.2 volts is only 50% capacity.

A battery is least active when it is at full charge and resting. [ie,neither charging or discharging] Anytime a charger is connected- even a float charger- there is a small amount of currant passing through the cells. The small amount of currant from a float charger is not enough to damage the cells but over a period of years it will wear the battery out faster. An AGM battery will stay at 100% charge for a long time if there is no drain. For longest life only charge it when it needs it.

Of course leaving a float charger on full time is better than allowing the battery to become depleted.

Check your blue can capacitor if your battery seems to go down by itself. Many times an old capacitor becomes leaky and will run the battery down in a few days or weeks. Jim

Yellow_Cad · Jan 9, 2013

comnoz said:
There is some disagreement about full charge voltage on AGM cells between manufacturers. I believe Oddessy says 12.8 volts after the surface charge has dissipated is 100%.
It requires a charging voltage of 15.1 volts to bring a battery to this level. Usually the Zener has begun to conduct by this point so a small charger will never reach that level if the Zener is in the circuit.

Differences of a few tenth of a volt are major when it comes to the percentage of charge in a battery at no load. IE- 12.2 volts is only 50% capacity.

A battery is least active when it is at full charge and resting. [ie,neither charging or discharging] Anytime a charger is connected- even a float charger- there is a small amount of currant passing through the cells. The small amount of currant from a float charger is not enough to damage the cells but over a period of years it will wear the battery out faster. An AGM battery will stay at 100% charge for a long time if there is no drain. For longest life only charge it when it needs it.

Of course leaving a float charger on full time is better than allowing the battery to become depleted.

Check your blue can capacitor if your battery seems to go down by itself. Many times an old capacitor becomes leaky and will run the battery down in a few days or weeks. Jim

What is a good practical setup to bypass the Zener while the battery is on a trickle charge?

So then, you're saying anything above 12.8 for a resting battery is fine for the battery to sit but below that it should be charged? Isn't this what smart chargers do?

How do you keep batteries from stranding you?

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