Hot Nasty Norton Brake

phil yates · Jun 2, 2014

hobot said:
Gorgeous brake upgrades each with its own special appeal.

Philis, I struggle like many with living past friends that took many memories with them. Born injured then infected to out of body states of fever plus Viet Nam era hippie mad monk electronic assisted altered states leaves me a bit too conscious when might rather have blanked out. I fear a crippling event each trip so do force myself to record various travel sections for play back in bed ridden stupor states. I did not get to my level of panic handling understanding w/o having repeated variations happening too fast to even know what went wrong but the worse ones can take me years to understand. I'm also Dianetics trained to battle with the Scientolgoists pestering my friends, so usually can replay details recorded below intellectual shut down by shock-pain, enough to learn something. Most dramatic was the Ninja low hi side on head snicking 4th at 14,000 rpm after covering brakes waiting on chief instructor to finish his turn he was sent out by Kieth Code to show me why the X's were they were. Ugh, I learned all I ever want to know on fatso heated race tires on race set up liter sports bikes, pashaw they even fall over in the Gravel pits going straight ahead, sheeze! I did get sort of run off track like couple other dudes that got life flighted out, me over 90 mph freaked at first then like Bro' Rabbit thrown into Briar patched, relaxed eased throttle, absorbing roughness holding bee line w/o brakes till reasonable to turn back on track.

A big influence on my attitude was old move called Billy Jack. in a murder court case he stated death was his constant friend which made every thing he did meaningless yet most important things to do.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=billy+jack

To propperly break in brake pads one should work up to hardest braking ya can just short of ever locking up to avoid spot melt welds till hotter than you ever expect to need to get them after wards. One unmentioned reason I want good hp/wt on Peel is not to wait so long on my routine brake testing contests with myself and environment.

Hmm
Interesting. I'm an untrained illiterate emotionless psychologist and offer everyone advice whether they want it or not. I point out that my own life has been such an utter disaster, I am well versed in the reasons. But can't seem to remember them. Not even sure if my horrid marriage really happened or not.

I do find that 150 beers every night, tends to dull the pain.
It also caused all the problems.
And my inability to remember any of them.
But I'm convinced they were all someone else's fault.
If I ever feel doubts about that, I just up the alcohol consumption, works a treat.
My goal is 250 beers a night, not to mention the Scotch afterwards.

But why are we talking about brakes?
I don't remember.

Phil (or Philis if you prefer. Friends just call me Fucker Phil, or Gym Boy is the latest name for me at the pub).

Phil

Hobot · Jun 2, 2014

Ugh, comfortably numb has its appeal but yoose guys need to get out and crash more as generally something breaking taking ya down slides a ways further with or w/o you ground alone than inline upright hard on brake. Under cartage view with un-caring women are part of what makes cycles so stupid to get on. My experience is if the common front tire squeals and locks uncomfortably fit a 110 size.

phil yates · Jun 2, 2014

hobot said:
Ugh, comfortably numb has its appeal but yoose guys need to get out and crash more as generally something breaking taking ya down slides a ways further with or w/o you ground alone than inline upright hard on brake. Under cartage view with un-caring women are part of what makes cycles so stupid to get on. My experience is if the common front tire squeals and locks uncomfortably fit a 110 size.

If I try and ride like you do hobot,
I may be comfortably numb,
Forever!!

Phil

concours · Jun 2, 2014

worntorn said:
concours said:

I locked my front tire for a few feet this afternoon on clean, dry pavement. Totally stock brake (dechromed disc though).. what more do you need?

Click to expand...

Try riding the bike fast thru thru BC's Duffey Lake Loop or any other Mountain road where speeds have to be pulled down two or three times in succession without adequate time to cool. The tiny original pads turn red hot and the braking is not just weak, it is non existant.
Then when everything cools, sure the stock brake will slide the tire again, but it doesn't mean much .

I rode the same stretch of road in the same way with the Madass single disc, could not make it overheat.
I don't see any need for the twin disc on aCommando, but if it is just for sitting at traffic lights, it might be OK.
Glen

I've been to BC, Vancouver, Port Coquitlam, but have never had the pleasure of exploring the mountains there, yet. I have, however, done my best to keep a (ahem) "brisk" pace over, around a few mountain roads in the past 35 years. (reference images below) As for fading brakes, I have always tried to be aware of my equipment's capabilities, and not destroy the equipment or myself while doing it. I don't doubt for a second the Commando's ancient brake can be made to fade, if that's the goal. Upgrades abound, lots of great options. Certainly having enough brakes to be safe is a big priority in my camp. I guess I was referencing the OP's question about variation in stock brake performance. I humbly fold my tent.

dennisgb · Jun 2, 2014

Fork braces have been discussed quite a bit here and there are different opinions.

If you look at the pic I posted of my fork I have a hoop brace on it. The main issues is getting the fork alignment right to reduce stiction. Many here believe that it is impossible to get a brace to work. I have the Turkite bushings to improve sliding and Landsdowne dampers to improve the bottoming issue as well as overall ride quality. Haven't had a chance to test it all because I'm still building the bike but hope that the forks are improved both in ride and braking. I also have billet yokes...essentially the forks are "new" compared to the original. Again this might be farther than you want to go, but the overall appearance will still be much the same as the original and hopefully perform more "modern".

phil yates · Jun 2, 2014

dennisgb said:
Fork braces have been discussed quite a bit here and there are different opinions.

If you look at the pic I posted of my fork I have a hoop brace on it. The main issues is getting the fork alignment right to reduce stiction. Many here believe that it is impossible to get a brace to work. I have the Turkite bushings to improve sliding and Landsdowne dampers to improve the bottoming issue as well as overall ride quality. Haven't had a chance to test it all because I'm still building the bike but hope that the forks are improved both in ride and braking. I also have billet yokes...essentially the forks are "new" compared to the original. Again this might be farther than you want to go, but the overall appearance will still be much the same as the original and hopefully perform more "modern".

den
Nothing is further than I want go and I thank you for your post.
The interest in your Commando can grow and expand with time. I have all that time yet ahead. Whatever I do and change it will always be a Fastback Commando. Yes, I'm interested in different forks, brakes and all sorts of different improvements. And this forum is so good for learning about those improvements from those who have them or have tried them. My Commando can only be a better bike for the time I have and will spend in here.

I will learn a lot.
And annoy or infuriate everyone in here in the process.
When I trained as a Captain on the Airbus A320, I asked the Training Captain so many questions he nearly went insane.
I hit the bottom of his knowledge then went on to learn much more by myself.
Just who I am.
A total prick!

Phil

Hobot · Jun 2, 2014

I hit the bottom of his knowledge then went on to learn much more by myself.

Yep Sir and when Author was depressed over Sir Lancelot balling Guinevere he went to his master Merlin for help and was told, "Learn Something", so he did and the rest is...

After selecting what to spend on you still have to decide which side and up or down to mount it. History references say main reason for dual brakes is spreading heat load to avoid fluid boil fade more than its adding power to lock up at speed. Just that more spinning flywheel to over come before rubber making noise. I don't hear much mention of tire sounds on these performance enhancements but that what performance enhancements meant for arn't they, which is just plain stupid as open air boxers and ape hanger bar pits view, ugh.

Just don't exceed the magic maxing 10%-ish sonic slip zone into this sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXj6O5MIpw8

worntorn · Jun 2, 2014

concours said:
worntorn said:

concours said:

I locked my front tire for a few feet this afternoon on clean, dry pavement. Totally stock brake (dechromed disc though).. what more do you need?

Click to expand...

Try riding the bike fast thru thru BC's Duffey Lake Loop or any other Mountain road where speeds have to be pulled down two or three times in succession without adequate time to cool. The tiny original pads turn red hot and the braking is not just weak, it is non existant.
Then when everything cools, sure the stock brake will slide the tire again, but it doesn't mean much .

I rode the same stretch of road in the same way with the Madass single disc, could not make it overheat.
I don't see any need for the twin disc on aCommando, but if it is just for sitting at traffic lights, it might be OK.
Glen

Click to expand...

I've been to BC, Vancouver, Port Coquitlam, but have never had the pleasure of exploring the mountains there, yet. I have, however, done my best to keep a (ahem) "brisk" pace over, around a few mountain roads in the past 35 years. (reference images below) As for fading brakes, I have always tried to be aware of my equipment's capabilities, and not destroy the equipment or myself while doing it. I don't doubt for a second the Commando's ancient brake can be made to fade, if that's the goal. Upgrades abound, lots of great options. Certainly having enough brakes to be safe is a big priority in my camp. I guess I was referencing the OP's question about variation in stock brake performance. I humbly fold my tent.

Well I'm no Barry Sheene but a maintaining a good pace following a 1949 Vincent thru the mountains showed up/the ultimate weakness of that stock brake. I ran out of brake and nearly plowed into the back of the Vincent on a switchback. It was that or go over the edge and drop several hundred feet down a rock face to the river below. As it was , I managed to slide in alongside him, my back brake was all that was remaining since I had not been leaning on it much.
I think that with the properly sized master cylinder the stock brake has two good stops in it, which makes it OK for most riding, but not the mountain stuff, that requires a really good brake.

Glen

Time Warp · Jun 2, 2014

I think one of the main problems now and back then in general is a lot of riders did not and do not bed the pads in or understand why you have to especially with the different pad friction materials be it new pads on new rotors or new on used rotors.

lcrken · Jun 2, 2014

I think my favorite Commando front brake was the Norvil setup that came stock on my production racer back in 1971, a floating cast iron disk with matching Lockheed racing caliper and master cylinders. It had really good feedback, and more than enough stopping power for treaded tires. This is a shot of it in 1982. I later did some lightening holes on the disk, which was a bit heavy by today's standards, but can't fine pics. It became a pretty popular upgrade for a while for standard Commandos.

Later, when racing slicks arrived on the roadracing scene, I added a second Norvil disk, and eventually went to a lighter front wheel and brake combo, shown here, in a shot from Daytona in 1991.

but for street use, I think the original Norvil brake would be hard to beat, if not as flashy as the wave rotors and such, and all the bits are still available. Lots of good front brake setups now available for Commando owners, so it's mostly a matter of preference. If you like sticking close to "original" or "period" parts, the Norvil disk is pretty cool, but if you're into modern upgrades, it's hard to beat the Brembos and such.

Ken

Ken

Fast Eddie · Jun 2, 2014

lcrken said:
I think my favorite Commando front brake was the Norvil setup that came stock on my production racer back in 1971, a floating cast iron disk with matching Lockheed racing caliper and master cylinders. It had really good feedback, and more than enough stopping power for treaded tires. This is a shot of it in 1982. I later did some lightening holes on the disk, which was a bit heavy by today's standards, but can't fine pics. It became a pretty popular upgrade for a while for standard Commandos.

Later, when racing slicks arrived on the roadracing scene, I added a second Norvil disk, and eventually went to a lighter front wheel and brake combo, shown here, in a shot from Daytona in 1991.

but for street use, I think the original Norvil brake would be hard to beat, if not as flashy as the wave rotors and such, and all the bits are still available. Lots of good front brake setups now available for Commando owners, so it's mostly a matter of preference. If you like sticking close to "original" or "period" parts, the Norvil disk is pretty cool, but if you're into modern upgrades, it's hard to beat the Brembos and such.

Ken

Ken

I agree with you there Ken, I raced with the same and thought it was great. The downsides for street use in my opinion are firstly cost, its an expensive set up to buy from scratch these days and secondly, when compared to what you can buy for less money these days, it is very heavy.

They were my main reasons for 'going modern' so to speak. Plus I expect to get even great feel and require less lever force.

Hobot · Jun 2, 2014

Dang Ken that yellar hound's ribs are showing! We say in the south that dog can hunt. I see Norvil LH caliper hung behind-under the slider, in contrast to the 850's on top. Glen I dice it up in the steeps and only time i could induce fade was after a master cylinder redo and fluid change that left microscopic layer on surfaces pumping and leaving lever pinned back over night didn't flush. I was trying to over heat brakes and pretty depressed till the air cooked and vibrated out, after that tire heat only thing that faded on good ole DOT 3. Then I put on 100 size and stay depressed till its gone. New pads are bedded in by repeated hard use till hot as ya dare which could cause oil boil vapor fade. I don't light drag brakes much unless rain drying but do get on em firmly for short times. Taboo to me to apply if leaned any unless a crisis. I'm so sensitized to over braking - first thing that happens to me on initial desire to grab the brake lever - is feels like a red hot iron in the palm of witch court test I have to pass before standing the burn of maxium whoa. Part of Peel's great brake was loosing 1.5 lb of it but was also sleeved and RGM lever each took off some effort to squeal. I couldn't use any more brake so mainly upgraded for less mass and looks.

phil yates · Jun 3, 2014

hobot said:
I hit the bottom of his knowledge then went on to learn much more by myself.

Click to expand...

Yep Sir and when Author was depressed over Sir Lancelot balling Guinevere he went to his master Merlin for help and was told, "Learn Something", so he did and the rest is...

After selecting what to spend on you still have to decide which side and up or down to mount it. History references say main reason for dual brakes is spreading heat load to avoid fluid boil fade more than its adding power to lock up at speed. Just that more spinning flywheel to over come before rubber making noise. I don't hear much mention of tire sounds on these performance enhancements but that what performance enhancements meant for arn't they, which is just plain stupid as open air boxers and ape hanger bar pits view, ugh.

Just don't exceed the magic maxing 10%-ish sonic slip zone into this sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXj6O5MIpw8

I will work all this out hobot. I always do. I take all advice on board, sift it then make my decision.
All part of the learning curve.
I'll be in the USA around September. If you're around I'll say hello.
You can loan me a Commando and teach me to ride hobot style.

Phil

Fast Eddie · Jun 3, 2014

[/quote]

Glen,
You need a longer ramp... your current one is too short... therefore too steep... and you're scraping the bottom of your bike as you load it onto the trailer...

dennisgb · Jun 3, 2014

phil yates said:
den
Nothing is further than I want go and I thank you for your post.
The interest in your Commando can grow and expand with time. I have all that time yet ahead. Whatever I do and change it will always be a Fastback Commando. Yes, I'm interested in different forks, brakes and all sorts of different improvements. And this forum is so good for learning about those improvements from those who have them or have tried them. My Commando can only be a better bike for the time I have and will spend in here.

Phil

Yes, I understand...at some point it will cause overload because there are so many things you can do to improve the bike.

I was just following up on your question about fork flex. I have the same concern with upgraded brakes and that is why I am trying to figure out how to brace it. Not sure it will work and thought I would share that. Given that you want to keep the Lockheed caliper it's probably moot, but just in case you might change your mind.

phil yates · Jun 3, 2014

dennisgb said:
phil yates said:

den
Nothing is further than I want go and I thank you for your post.
The interest in your Commando can grow and expand with time. I have all that time yet ahead. Whatever I do and change it will always be a Fastback Commando. Yes, I'm interested in different forks, brakes and all sorts of different improvements. And this forum is so good for learning about those improvements from those who have them or have tried them. My Commando can only be a better bike for the time I have and will spend in here.

Phil

Click to expand...

Yes, I understand...at some point it will cause overload because there are so many things you can do to improve the bike.

I was just following up on your question about fork flex. I have the same concern with upgraded brakes and that is why I am trying to figure out how to brace it. Not sure it will work and thought I would share that. Given that you want to keep the Lockheed caliper it's probably moot, but just in case you might change your mind.

den
Yes, it will cost a lot of money and end up just another Japo Crapo.
So why not just buy a Japo Crapo? Seems everyone else in here has come to the same conclusion.
I wish I had of kept the postie bike. It was red too.

Why not just jam a big chunk of wood through the front wheel spokes?
Will stiffen the front end (dramatically) and make a good park brake.

Phil

worntorn · Jun 3, 2014

Fast Eddie said:
Glen,
You need a longer ramp... your current one is too short... therefore too steep... and you're scraping the bottom of your bike as you load it onto the trailer...

Eddie, those pictures belong to Concours, they were his response to my statement that if a Commando is ridden hard in the mountains, the stock brake is not adequate. I must have unintentionally offended, so my apologies.
I made the statement because I have had one very close call after losing the front brake , which was a stocker in proper order, good pads from Vintage brake.

I make all such grinding marks on the exhaust the easy safe way, with a rotary grinder :mrgreen:

Glen

Fast Eddie · Jun 3, 2014

worntorn said:
Fast Eddie said:

Glen,
You need a longer ramp... your current one is too short... therefore too steep... and you're scraping the bottom of your bike as you load it onto the trailer...

Click to expand...

Eddie, those pictures belong to Concours, they were his response to my statement that if a Commando is ridden hard in the mountains, the stock brake is not adequate. I must have unintentionally offended, so my apologies.
I made the statement because I have had one very close call after losing the front brake , which was a stocker in proper order, good pads from Vintage brake.

I make all such grinding marks on the exhaust the easy safe way, with a rotary grinder :mrgreen:

Glen

Oops, obviously your ramp is ok then... Concours: you need a longer ramp!

I kinda stole this joke from a mate who had a Fireblade, he was self confessed as not the quickest rider around, and one day he tells me he needs a race pipe for more clearance, he left a 'comic pause' until he could see the shock on my face then said "yeah, the lawn mower catches on the standard one when I put it in the shed" :lol:

lcrken · Jun 3, 2014

hobot said:
Dang Ken that yellar hound's ribs are showing! We say in the south that dog can hunt. I see Norvil LH caliper hung behind-under the slider, in contrast to the 850's on top.

In the interest of completeness, I guess I should mention that the PR came from the factory with the caliper mounted on the right side, on top. I swapped it over shortly after I got the bike in 1972, because it just didn't look right to me at the time. I was later told that Norton put it there in the interest of more cooling air flowing over it, but in 1972 I was just learning about motorcycles, and thought it would be better to get the mass closer to the steering axis. The brake seemed to work just fine in either location.

Ken

dennisgb · Jun 3, 2014

phil yates said:
dennisgb said:

phil yates said:

den
Nothing is further than I want go and I thank you for your post.
The interest in your Commando can grow and expand with time. I have all that time yet ahead. Whatever I do and change it will always be a Fastback Commando. Yes, I'm interested in different forks, brakes and all sorts of different improvements. And this forum is so good for learning about those improvements from those who have them or have tried them. My Commando can only be a better bike for the time I have and will spend in here.

Phil

Click to expand...

Yes, I understand...at some point it will cause overload because there are so many things you can do to improve the bike.

I was just following up on your question about fork flex. I have the same concern with upgraded brakes and that is why I am trying to figure out how to brace it. Not sure it will work and thought I would share that. Given that you want to keep the Lockheed caliper it's probably moot, but just in case you might change your mind.

Click to expand...

den
Yes, it will cost a lot of money and end up just another Japo Crapo.
So why not just buy a Japo Crapo? Seems everyone else in here has come to the same conclusion.
I wish I had of kept the postie bike. It was red too.

Why not just jam a big chunk of wood through the front wheel spokes?
Will stiffen the front end (dramatically) and make a good park brake.

Phil

Not sure what you mean Phil. No Japo Crapo on the front of the Norton...just trying to improve it. Like I said a while back it should be about use and purpose. Just like you want to build up your second Norton...there is a reason and a purpose for you to do that. In my case I am looking for safety and reliability with my Norton. Not so concerned about performance. Improved brakes are a safety factor for me. On my new MKIII back in 1976, I remember the brake fade in the worst situations...and grabbing the brake in the rain and there was nothing there...that was a brand new Norton...just not safe IMO.

Hot Nasty Norton Brake

phil yates

Hobot

phil yates

concours

dennisgb

phil yates

Hobot

worntorn

Time Warp

.......back to the 70's.

lcrken

Fast Eddie

Hobot

phil yates

Fast Eddie

dennisgb

phil yates

worntorn

Fast Eddie

lcrken

dennisgb

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