Head gaskets
- Thread starter Chili
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Copper. With the thinnest smear of the high-temp copper Permatex to each side. You can re-use the gasket too by annealing and quenching it which is a fun thing to do in itself. 
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After seeing how easy the recent decade of flame-rings blow out compared to the 2 decades earlier FlameRings, I've left the more current flamering on shed wall and use copper annealed beyond cherry red to bright orange temp so wax like hard to handle before install and work hardening torque down. Old FlameRings seem to have a solid steel ring while my last flamering from Anover was more a metal foil crimped on papery like composite. After a gasket blowing check head for gas jet cut grooves to fill in. I found JBW holds up for a few head removals/installs before needs another JBW fix.
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I still use flame ring gaskets regularly. You just need to remember to retorque them several times at first and at least once a year afterwards. They seal better around the pushrod tubes.
The copper gaskets are a little more forgiving if you let the head bolts get loose -and they will get loose -but even they will blow if you don't catch them in time.
I have yet to see a copper gasket that didn't start to leak at least a little eventually at the front -no matter how they are sealed.
Including the copper gasket on my bike that I have to run because no one makes a flame ring for a big bore. Jim
The copper gaskets are a little more forgiving if you let the head bolts get loose -and they will get loose -but even they will blow if you don't catch them in time.
I have yet to see a copper gasket that didn't start to leak at least a little eventually at the front -no matter how they are sealed.
Including the copper gasket on my bike that I have to run because no one makes a flame ring for a big bore. Jim
I tried three times with the copper and always had at least a bit of oil seeping. I have always thought that I screwed up, but maybe not.
One shot with the thinner flame ring with a bit of dope around the pushrods and it has been leak free ever since. The extra half point of compression also added some zip. Maybe it was more than a half point since if the copper wasn't quite holding the oil in, perhaps some compression was also sneaking out, without being fully blown?
Glen
One shot with the thinner flame ring with a bit of dope around the pushrods and it has been leak free ever since. The extra half point of compression also added some zip. Maybe it was more than a half point since if the copper wasn't quite holding the oil in, perhaps some compression was also sneaking out, without being fully blown?
Glen
Fast Eddie
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I was beginning to think about using copper, partly because its more 'stable' meaning that I could choose from different thicknesses when deciding on squish gap and CR.
But the composite gaskets I've used thus far do seem to seal very well.
Does anyone know how the composite type fair regarding there dimensional stality? Meaning, are there 'thick and thin' options? And most importantly, is the amount they compress when tourqed down fixed / reliable?
But the composite gaskets I've used thus far do seem to seal very well.
Does anyone know how the composite type fair regarding there dimensional stality? Meaning, are there 'thick and thin' options? And most importantly, is the amount they compress when tourqed down fixed / reliable?
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Fast Eddie said:
I don't know about different thicknesses for flame ring gaskets. I always just get them from Andover.
They loose a few thousandth thickness in the first 1000 miles or so but they don't change much after that.
For use on a high compression motor I install copper o-rings with either a copper or flame ring gasket. That makes them a lot more forgiving to loose head bolts. Jim
Fast Eddie
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comnoz said:
Thanks Jim,
I'm running an AN head gasket now myself. Can you tell me what its compressed thickness is likely to be after its fully 'settled'? I had assumed 0.040" but I'm now suspicious that its less than that. I'm keen to know as I set the squish quite tight, and I'm now thinking it may be even tighter than I thought!
I confess, I have been VERY surprised at how loose the head bolts have been on the 3 occasions I have torqued the head so far, and I've only done 200 miles or so! I am very curious as to how things happened when new? I'm guessing the factory must have over torqued them significantly to allow for settle?
I'm very interested in your copper O ring gasket idea Jim. Can you post photos? And does it require any machining of head or barrel?
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Steve Maney cylinder sleeves are milled to leave a .003" proud rim around the bore that bites into copper gaskets but should still put the copper wire around the p-rod tunnels. When I had Ken Augustine advising me on stuff to square up on Peel he said all Commando cylinders are cut on a slant leaving one end .003" low. Would it work to have our cast iron barrels squared up while leaving a proud rim like Maney?
Also besides 10 CR Combats do any other factory issued Cdo's let the pistons extend above the barrel top and through gasket bores?
Also besides 10 CR Combats do any other factory issued Cdo's let the pistons extend above the barrel top and through gasket bores?
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hobot said:
Machining the surface to leave a ring around the cylinders could be done with some work, but why -when a o-ring works at least as well.
The Norton pistons all come up through the gasket. Combat or standard makes no difference. Only the head is milled more for the combat. Jim
Fast Eddie
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comnoz said:A little machine work.
Cut a groove .020 wide and .009 deep and lay a piece of annealed .018 bare copper wire in the groove. Hold it with a few spots of superglue and cut the ends flat so they butt together. Jim
And onto this you would then simple pit a stock AN gasket?
This seems to me to only seal the barrel side of things, why is there no need to do the same to the head?
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Fast Eddie said:comnoz said:A little machine work.
Cut a groove .020 wide and .009 deep and lay a piece of annealed .018 bare copper wire in the groove. Hold it with a few spots of superglue and cut the ends flat so they butt together. Jim
And onto this you would then simple pit a stock AN gasket?
This seems to me to only seal the barrel side of things, why is there no need to do the same to the head?
The copper o-ring is mainly there to lock the gasket in place. With half of the copper wire standing proud of the surface it embeds into the gasket so it can't move even when the bolts relax a bit. It works good with a flamering or a standard thickness copper gasket. Jim
Fast Eddie
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comnoz said:Fast Eddie said:comnoz said:A little machine work.
Cut a groove .020 wide and .009 deep and lay a piece of annealed .018 bare copper wire in the groove. Hold it with a few spots of superglue and cut the ends flat so they butt together. Jim
And onto this you would then simple pit a stock AN gasket?
This seems to me to only seal the barrel side of things, why is there no need to do the same to the head?
The copper o-ring is mainly there to lock the gasket in place. With half of the copper wire standing proud of the surface it embeds into the gasket so it can't move even when the bolts relax a bit. It works good with a flamering or a standard thickness copper gasket. Jim
Got it. Thanks Jim.
lcrken
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You can also do this with a stainless steel (safety wire) o-ring, but it needs to be less proud of the surface, and pretty consistent around the bore, because the steel wire doesn't deform as much as the copper wire, but imbeds itself into the head gasket more. I tried to keep them at .005" above the surface. I've tried both on Nortons, and like Jim, I now use a copper wire. It's really tempting to try to find a higher tech solution. In sealing up critical surfaces in missiles we used gas filled metal O-rings, but they can get expensive fast, particularly if you need custom sizes.
A link to one of the suppliers. Lots of info here
http://www.techneticsgroup.com/products ... s-o-rings/
Ken
A link to one of the suppliers. Lots of info here
http://www.techneticsgroup.com/products ... s-o-rings/
Ken
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