Eyelet head gasket sealant

I have searched this forum and cannot find the answer although I'm sure I've read something before.
I was always taught not to use a sealant on a head gasket.
I am about to re fit a re skimmed 850 head using an eylet gasket.
Should I use Wellseal on
a. The gasket surfaces.
b. Around the push rod tubes and oil hole
c. No sealant needed.

Many thanks

Do you mean the flame ring type gasket?

IMO no sealant is required. I clean both surfaces scrupulously with brake cleaner and assemble dry. I’ve never had one leak.

THE most important thing with a flame ring gasket is to follow the seemingly very tedious frequent re torquing process during the first few hundred miles. Failure to do this increases the chances of gasket failure massively.

c

Fast Eddie said:

Do you mean the flame ring type gasket?

IMO no sealant is required. I clean both surfaces scrupulously with brake cleaner and assemble dry. I’ve never had one leak.

THE most important thing with a flame ring gasket is to follow the seemingly very tedious frequent re torquing process during the first few hundred miles. Failure to do this increases the chances of gasket failure massively.

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That was my thoughs but I thought I recalled a thread.
only ones I've had leak are copper.

I had the flame ring gaskets fail big time (first head gasket) that was 44 years ago only use copper head gaskets since, if they start to get a seep just tension it down and in 47 years I have only pulled the head 4x.

Ashley

I am in total agreement with Fast Eddie on this if you are using a flame-ring gasket.My head has also been shaved many moons ago but the re-torquing operation has worked well for me with no sealant.Has lasted for quite some time now.
Mike

If the head gasket is copper, I usually smear grease on it. I don't put them in dry. As the head is tightened, the gasket needs to be able to move, slightly. Otherwise it might not seal properly. Old gaskets might have less problems than new. Annealing can help.

Fast Eddie said:

Do you mean the flame ring type gasket?

IMO no sealant is required. I clean both surfaces scrupulously with brake cleaner and assemble dry. I’ve never had one leak.

THE most important thing with a flame ring gasket is to follow the seemingly very tedious frequent re torquing process during the first few hundred miles. Failure to do this increases the chances of gasket failure massively.

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Fully agree that nothing is required for the flame rings type gaskets.

However, AN recommends Hylomar (silicon) on the two small studs pointing up from the cylinders and I put very thin smear of it around the pushrod hole cutouts but absolutely nothing on or near the flame rings or any other part of the gasket. By very thin I mean I put it on with my fingers and then wipe all I can off with my fingers - so little if left that it probably does nothing.

marshg246 said:

Fully agree that nothing is required for the flame rings type gaskets.

However, AN recommends Hylomar (silicon) on the two small studs pointing up from the cylinders and I put very thin smear of it around the pushrod hole cutouts but absolutely nothing on or near the flame rings or any other part of the gasket. By very thin I mean I put it on with my fingers and then wipe all I can off with my fingers - so little if left that it probably does nothing.

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Yes, those studs is a good call !

ashman said:

I had the flame ring gaskets fail big time (first head gasket) that was 44 years ago only use copper head gaskets since, if they start to get a seep just tension it down and in 47 years I have only pulled the head 4x.

Ashley

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Yes, if a composite gasket fails it can fail completely, ie get blown out, as it has no mechanical strength.

Whereas if a copper gasket fails, ie starts to leak, you can still put many miles (get home) on it as it has the mechanical strength to not get ‘blown out’ so easily.

The downside to copper is it’s not easy to keep them 100% weep free around pushrod tunnels and oil drain hole, but it’s not impossible either.

I‘ve never had a composite head gasket leak or fail. I would only use a composite gasket on my 850, on bigger bore motors there’s only copper to choose from.

There’s no ‘wrong’ answer though really, different strokes for different folks.

ashman said:

I had the flame ring gaskets fail big time (first head gasket) that was 44 years ago only use copper head gaskets since, if they start to get a seep just tension it down and in 47 years I have only pulled the head 4x.

Ashley

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I've never used anything but copper on Triumph or BSA. On Norton, they kept leaking so I reluctantly switched. Later I found out that I was a big dummy. The AN copper head gaskets are not factory annealed so must be annealed before use - never had one for Triumph or BSA that was not factory annealed.

marshg246 said:

I've never used anything but copper on Triumph or BSA. On Norton, they kept leaking so I reluctantly switched. Later I found out that I was a big dummy. The AN copper head gaskets are not factory annealed so must be annealed before use - never had one for Triumph or BSA that was not factory annealed.

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It is now thought that to be effective, annealing is very time-sensitive and should be redone 20 minutes before assembly!

That is probably a good argument for composite gaskets in itself as you have to work quickly to get the head pulled down.

But I haven't used a composite gasket since the '70s. It was my first failure on my 750 Fastback and I had one blow pieces out on my 850 race bike, never again! I don't doubt that the gaskets available now are better, but I don't care.

With copper, you usually finish a race meeting and only find it has 'failed' on your next tear down!

For me, composite gaskets make sense for road bikes, where oil leaks can be a bigger issue on longer rides.

On the one occasion I had my Commando engine apart (to change the original, weak, slotted pistons for Hepolite powermax items) I used a Hallite gasket. No problems, just follow the instructions to the letter.
I also used a 2mm aluminium gasket on my combat race motor, to lower the compression when using a barrel which had been reduced in height for runing on methanol in a previous life. Again, no problems.
I still have unused 1mm copper gasket but, don't suppose I will ever try that.

When I have had my head off I always put a new copper head gasket on but I usually anneal it before fitting, but last time I had the head off I forgot to anneal it and remembered I forgot to do it after the head was back on and tensioned down, well that was just over 14 years ago, but I also lightly sprayed the copper gasket with Holmare gasket spray and so far I have only retention the head down the once at 500 miles.
Just about 12 months ago I had a leak around my head base and thought I blew the HG but closer inspection there wasn't no leak from the gasket, found out one of my carb manifolds was seeping and looked like an oil leak around the side of my head, so after 14 years and about 35k miles the non-annealed copper head gasket is still good, I am still running all my original head bolts.
My mate Don who got me into Norton's and Featherbed frames is a bit of a tight arse and has reused copper head gaskets, he just cleans them and anneal them again and put them back on but he said only one refitting, this is on his race bike.
I once had a copper head gasket start to leak badly but found one or 2 head bolt had come lose, retention stopped the leak completely.

Ashley

marshg246 said:

Fully agree that nothing is required for the flame rings type gaskets.

However, AN recommends Hylomar (silicon) on the two small studs pointing up from the cylinders and I put very thin smear of it around the pushrod hole cutouts but absolutely nothing on or near the flame rings or any other part of the gasket. By very thin I mean I put it on with my fingers and then wipe all I can off with my fingers - so little if left that it probably does nothing.

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I have had success with Andover eyeletted gaskets used dry, but with other aftermarket eyeletted gaskets have encountered oil leaks around the pushrod and oil drain holes. Comparison with the AN gaskets, the flame ring was thicker. Blue hylomar (polyester urethane, not silicone, by the way) was effective with the non Andover ones. As a result I usually put a light smear around the pushrod holes and oil drain hole even on AN gaskets just for peace of mind.

@peter12 , a friend with a MkIII had problems with a fullauto head that some butcher had grossly over torqued. All three studs pulled as we retorqued it to stop an oil leak near the tunnels.
Studs were helicoiled but the next gasket (flame-ring) also leaked from the pushrod tunnels. Checking the head gasket face for flatness revealed the area around the tunnels had been slightly distorted.
Used wet & dry on glass but (belt & braces) put 3 coats of Permatex Copper Spray-a-Gasket on a new flame-ring gasket and left overnight before reassembling (thanks @KiwiShane for the suggestion)
Now totally dry at nearly 1000 miles and about due for the 4th torquing process.
Cheers

Spray copper coat is your friend.

robs ss said:

@peter12 , a friend with a MkIII had problems with a fullauto head that some butcher had grossly over torqued. All three studs pulled as we retorqued it to stop an oil leak near the tunnels.
Studs were helicoiled but the next gasket (flame-ring) also leaked from the pushrod tunnels. Checking the head gasket face for flatness revealed the area around the tunnels had been slightly distorted.
Used wet & dry on glass but (belt & braces) put 3 coats of Permatex Copper Spray-a-Gasket on a new flame-ring gasket and left overnight before reassembling (thanks @KiwiShane for the suggestion)
Now totally dry at nearly 1000 miles and about due for the 4th torquing process.
Cheers

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Thankyou