Hasting Oil Rings

Stephen take a look at the Franz&grubb ( www.fagengine.com ) Tech Hepolite ring installation Guide

i guess the small camp of folk who decide the rings are manufactured incorrectly must have more in depth knowledge of the bore pressure required than a manufacturer who has been making rings for 100 years plus using a tried and tested formula
you may get lucky
 
B+Bogus said:
I had the same issue with Hastings rings some years ago, and when I said I'd cropped the expanders in order to get them to fit I got slagged off for it.
It's OK, hun - I'm over it now šŸ˜¢
Out of the packet, the cylinders simply wouldn't go over the oil rings.
I've had no issues with recent Goetze rings as supplied with Hepolite pistons, although after encountering issues with my original 1970 pistons accepting new rings, I was pointed to the service bulletin. SN N46 identified early pistons were recommended to be replaced with later types with deeper ring grooves, which accepted the new 'S.E.' spring expander type oil rings from engine number 146584.
Shallower oil rings are still available and are also used on Powermax pistons. I need to check to see if Dunstall pistons are the same.
Click to expand...
I've had to shorten the expanders in the past with excellent results
Plenty of people are ready to slag others off
But they are not there with you in the garage when faced with the problem
 
Frankie17 said:
Stephen take a look at the Franz&grubb ( www.fagengine.com ) Tech Hepolite ring installation Guide

i guess the small camp of folk who decide the rings are manufactured incorrectly must have more in depth knowledge of the bore pressure required than a manufacturer who has been making rings for 100 years plus using a tried and tested formula
you may get lucky
Click to expand...
I can only speak for myself here & the engine I was building. When I fitted the barrels the engine was so hard to turn over that it would have been impossible to start & would have caused some damage. The rings were the correct depth for the piston ring grooves & I gapped them to .012". The bore was plateau honed finishing with 220 grit, so whilst I personally don't have a greater knowledge than the ring manufactures, I do know when something isn't right. Maybe the expanders were for +.040" pistons when I was fitting +.020"
 
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Matchless said:
I can only speak for myself here & the engine I was building. When I fitted the barrels the engine was so hard to turn over that it would have been impossible to start & would have caused some damage. The rings were the correct depth for the piston ring grooves & I gapped them to .012". The bore was plateau honed finishing with 220 grit, so whilst I personally don't have a greater knowledge than the ring manufactures, I do know when something isn't right. Maybe the expanders were for +.040" pistons when I was fitting were +.020"
Click to expand...
Mistakes can be and are made. For instance, JCC often mixes up the LH and RT marking on pistons. I suspect that the springs are made for Std, +20 and +40 and that +40 spring set could get into a +20 ring set. I've never had the problem. Going forward, I will measure the length of each spring I use as accurately as possible. If others will as well and report back, we can soon know what they should be.

There are so many of what I call "urban legends" created here. It would be nice to not create another but rather be able to give a definitive answer when someone asks a question.
 
Greg, I agree with you. It would be useful if folks who install the Hepolite pistons with the 2 piece oil rings could chime in with their experience, both in the short and the long term.

In the meanime, if anybody has some Hepolite piston sets in a few different overbore sizes, it would be interesting to know if the internal spring that goes in the oil control ring was sized accordingly.
 
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Stephen Hill said:
Greg, I agree with you. It would be useful if folks who install the Hepolite pistons with the 2 piece oil rings could chime in with their experience, both in the short and the long term.

In the meanime, if anybody has some Hepolite piston sets in a few different overbore sizes, it would be interesting to know if the internal spring that goes in the oil control ring was sized accordingly.
Click to expand...
I received an order today so I'll kick this off. I took a bunch of pictures, put both sets away and then realized that the pictures were all crap - this was the best, and at least it shows how I measured. There is a +0.040 spring closest to the ruler and a +0.020 spring beside it. These are 850 sets.

The +0.040 spring is 236 mm long and 1.94 mm in diameter.
The +0.020 spring is 234 mm long and 1.33 mm in diameter.

I was surprised that they were different diameters. In both cases, with the springs in place, the ring gap can be squeezed closed with difficulty and the springs are not coil bound. Also. the +0.020 wire catches on the inside of the spring - it's important that the spring be all the way together or the ring gap won't close. The +0.040 springs slip easier on the connecting wire.

I wish I had a standard set to check.

Something I've wondered for a while: Many Triumph and Volkswagon engines I rebuilt in the 70s had oil rings that look just like these, but with no springs. I've taken apart a couple of Norton engines with those rings as well. Makes me wonder if the springs are actually required!

Finally, in both cases the springs fit in a groove in the ring, but they are not flush with the inside of the ring - they protrude by about 1/4 of their diameter.

Now I have two open box piston sets no one will want to buy :( Oh well, I guess I'll eventually need them.




Hasting Oil Rings
 
I am assuming the three sets I dealt with were a mistake on Hastings part. Why the difference in ring pressure to the cylinder walls when the softer version works just fine? ( I'm talking about the 3 piece oil ring. )
I can only imagine what the greatly increased pressure must be doing to the cylinder walls...and the honing marks will probably be wiped off in 100 revolutions.
 
Stephen Hill said:
Greg, I agree with you. It would be useful if folks who install the Hepolite pistons with the 2 piece oil rings could chime in with their experience, both in the short and the long term.

In the meanime, if anybody has some Hepolite piston sets in a few different overbore sizes, it would be interesting to know if the internal spring that goes in the oil control ring was sized accordingly.
Click to expand...
As I said in my earlier post, I've used Hepolite-supplied AE/Goetze rings on several motors (Norton and Triumph) now with no issues at all. They're generally correctly gapped out of the packet, and using ring compressors they've all installed OK.
From recollection Wassells (Hepolite) stopped supplying Hastings rings between 8-10 years ago.
 
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This is from the owner of Wassell concerning the Hepolite oil rings:

We are often asked about the inner spring tension, modern automotive / motorcycle rings use a much reduced radial load and are considerably easier to compress and fit this is a result of improved engine design / cooling and the use of synthetic based lubricants.

If you have been around in our industry you will have seen 1 piece cast oil rings / three piece rings with steel strip expanders / rings with spiral springs etc. used at some point.

We find many owners have preference for a specific ring type and often very vocal on forums if rings do not meet with their preferred specification.

Speaking with some of the US distributors they now stock bare pistons and offer ring options to try cover all bases Taiwan rings / Hepolite / Hastings / Grant rings / Gandini as customers are very fickle.

I have spoken with our UK manufacturers of Hepolite rings and they use a tried and tested formula for vintage air cooled engines which works based on tangential load x bore diameter to work out the required radial expander spring pressure to form a good seal , bear in mind these guys were producing OEM for the British motorcycle / automotive industry back in the day And actually solved many of the oil control issues with some BSA / Triumph / Norton production models by changing the oil ring design to the spiral spring oil control

The initial fitment of the oil ring with spring expander can be more difficult than fitting a conventional oil ring but by using a good quality 360 degree ring compressor and ensuring the insertion lead taper on the bore has not been removed by boring it will fit and once the spring has been subjected to heat cycles it will settle and function as designed.

Do not cut the spring to ease insertion!

Here is an attachment he sent me:

Hasting Oil Rings
 
Good to get a reasoned response from Wassel. Well done Greg!
I did wonder how the "excessive" ring tension would change in use: ie, heat cycles, break-in, hours, mileage, etc.
It would be really interesting to how much the "excessive" tension and drag would dissipate after, let's say 10 or 20 hours of operation.
Course to do this, you would have to install the oil rings as provided, come up with some measure, run the bike, tear it down, and remeasure. Who is going to do that?

At this point I can say, after installing new pistons, new rings (with the modified oil riing), a light hone of the cylinder, and new valves and guides, is that on startup and a run around the block, there was absolutely no oil burning out the pipes.
 
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I just did 800 miles on the bike with new Hepolite pistons and "modified" oil rings (shortened internal expanding ring).
Break-in was a couple of hours around town, then highway speeds at 60- 70 mph keeping up with buddies on a group ride to the INOA rally at Winthrop. Through the mountains, so lots of high load riding. Not a recommended break-in procedure, if there is such a thing.
No smoking at all from the exhaust. Oil consumption was about 3/4 of a litre in each direction. There is soot in the end of the exhaust. It is not oily, but it is not pure soot either.
The oil consumption seems high, but perhaps not for new rings. Hopefully it will decrease.
Would it be lower without "modified" rings? Who knows.
Thoughts?
 
Don't most cars and some motorcycles like ,Honda use 3 piece , expander and two rails , they wok really well , can sometimes be supplied in low tension .
 
The name of this thread is not very useful at this point. Originally, lots of folks including me thought that the rings that come with Hepolite pistons are made by Hastings. Not so any more. When Hastings did supply Norton piston rings, they were the 3 piece style. Good question, what other piston rings will fit the Taiwanese made Hepolite pistons?
 
Shelby-Right said:
Don't most cars and some motorcycles like ,Honda use 3 piece , expander and two rails , they wok really well , can sometimes be supplied in low tension .
Click to expand...
Today, that's true. And that's what Hastings supplied for Norton. Whether they are the best for our old bikes or not, is a matter of opinion. I used them because they were American made, not because I thought they were better. I actually prefer the one-piece rings of old that look like the current Hepolite rings but didn't have the spring. They did their job and were easy to install. I assume they are no longer available - I haven't found them.
 
Stephen Hill said:
The name of this thread is not very useful at this point. Originally, lots of folks including me thought that the rings that come with Hepolite pistons are made by Hastings. Not so any more. When Hastings did supply Norton piston rings, they were the 3 piece style. Good question, what other piston rings will fit the Taiwanese made Hepolite .
Click to expand...
 
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Any ring that is sized correctly, but you need to check the groove depth, because the 3 piece supplies its own tension to the bore , plain cast just need some back clearance similar to the 3 piece , approx .020 , and a 4 piece ring needs the correct groove depth , as this determines the tension on the bore
 
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