Front brake upgrade..........

Status
Not open for further replies.
commandofastback said:
The complete front of my fastback (and some of my bones) have been destroyed by an absent minded car driver some weeks ago.
Thankfully i am recovering, the compensation cheque was huge and that would have been a great oportunity for some upgrades.

PS: split brake disk anyone ?

Click to expand...

Glad you lived.
Was (your bikes) inadequate braking power a factor in the crash?
 
tray said:
why doesnt anybody make a floating disc the same size as original?
Click to expand...
Because it would be the answer to a question that doesn’t exist.
said another way, it would offer no performance increase simply being “floating”.
 
milfordite said:
I use the Lockheed caliper like Norvil sells along with a 12mm m/c from Brembo. Disc was blanchard ground. Really works well, great feel to it.
Click to expand...

Got a USA source for the 12mm Brembo or equivalent? I went a step further and used an 11mm Brembo with the Lockheed CP2696 and Norvil disc. Thinking about trying a 12mm.
 
concours said:
Glad you lived.
Was (your bikes) inadequate braking power a factor in the crash?
Click to expand...

Nope.
Not even the best brake would have saved me this time.

I was going straight, a guy in a Honda Civic came towards me and decided to ignore me when he took a left turn.
I swerved to the left and i hit the car with the right side of the bike.
Thats why the disc exploded.
 
Last edited:
concours said:
Because it would be the answer to a question that doesn’t exist.
said another way, it would offer no performance increase simply being “floating”.
Click to expand...

I am not so sure.
The original setup is actually a fixed disc with a fixed caliper, and nobody would build a braking system like that nowadays.
If either the disc or the caliper would be floating, both pads are applied with the same force because the friction surfaces can adjust to one another.
With the original Norton setup its just hit and miss.
 
oldbeezer said:
Would not the same force be applied to both pads with non floating caliper and piston? Wouldn't it just be a matter of one of the caliper pistons extending further than the other?
Click to expand...

Theoretically yes.
But in reality you have always have slightly different conditions on both friction areas, pads warping and sticking to their guides, warping, wearing disc etc.
Every braking system needs a component that allows slight axial movement to compensate this, so either a floating caliper or a floating disc.
Of course the hydraulic leverage is also very important.
Norton used such a big master cylinder in the first place because people were used to even weaker drum brakes back then.
 
commandofastback said:
I am not so sure.
The original setup is actually a fixed disc with a fixed caliper, and nobody would build a braking system like that nowadays.
If either the disc or the caliper would be floating, both pads are applied with the same force because the friction surfaces can adjust to one another.
With the original Norton setup its just hit and miss.
Click to expand...
Nope.
Equal pressure is applied with the original setup.
 
commandofastback said:
Nope.
Not even the best brake would have saved me this time.

I was going straight, a guy in a Honda Civic came towards me and decided to ignore me when he took a left turn.
I swerved to the left and i hit the car with the right side of the bike.
Thats why the disc exploded.
Click to expand...
Day time? Was your High (main) beam in use?
 
You can only go as fast as you can stop. A mediocre front brake will slow most riders - the survival instinct is psychological. When you know stopping the bike is reliably at your finger tip, you will always be faster. If the brake is unreliable and you know it, you can suffer from severe anxiety. When I used a drum front brake, I had nightmares before every race meeting. And the single chromed disc was not much better.
When you find yourself in a corner at high speed, running out of road, at full lean with the front brake hard on - what do you do ?
 
Last edited:
acotrel wrote: ' You can only go as fast as you can stop. '

Sometimes even that is too fast, my Guzzi 1200 Sport (another twin with a great racing heritage) has twin 4 piston Brembo's upfront. I locked the front wheel on a dry road, at 5mph 2 weeks ago, lost balance & ended up with a broken collarbone, bent gear lever, broken footrest & some other cosmetic damage; I can't believe the price of Guzzi spares compared to Commando (£90 for a plastic headlight trim!). I'd suggest the critical point is to balance breaking ability with engine performance & riding style (& I probably need some training wheels at the back :( )

Back to BI, on the Commando, I've RGM's 12" disk, CP2696 caliper (both fitted in January this year), AN's 13mm reservoir & braided hoses, this works well for me (the Guzzi has what, 4x the stopping power for an extra 50kg & ~50bhp) - I've spent most of my life riding bikes that need a good haul on the brakes & a prayer (not good for an atheist) in emergencies - getting used to 'modern' brakes is taking a little time & pain!
 
I know it might sound like more blah-blah... but I’d argue it’s important to remember that ‘feel’ and overall set up is almost as important as outright braking power.

People often say they have all the brake their bike can handle cos it’ll lock the wheel, or make the tyre squeal. Well, a bicycle can lock the wheel, but we don’t fit bicycle brakes to motorcycles!

Suspension, tyres, correct stance of the bike all help to ensure the tyre is correctly loaded and is able to handle the braking forces. As does correctly applied lever pressure, and the squeezing a brick feel of stock based set ups certainly doesn’t help with this.

So, actually, increasing the braking power at the caliper end without increasing the feel at the lever end can create an unpleasant brake.

A huge benefit to the Brembo master cyl assembly as sold by cNw is that it has a dog leg lever, this provides more feel, it also has an adjustable span, so it can be adjusted to give max bite at a point most comfortable to the rider. All of this stuff is important in getting good braking.
 
Mike Sullivan said:
acotrel wrote: ' You can only go as fast as you can stop. '

Sometimes even that is too fast, my Guzzi 1200 Sport (another twin with a great racing heritage) has twin 4 piston Brembo's upfront. I locked the front wheel on a dry road, at 5mph 2 weeks ago, lost balance & ended up with a broken collarbone, bent gear lever, broken footrest & some other cosmetic damage; I can't believe the price of Guzzi spares compared to Commando (£90 for a plastic headlight trim!). I'd suggest the critical point is to balance breaking ability with engine performance & riding style (& I probably need some training wheels at the back :( )

Back to BI, on the Commando, I've RGM's 12" disk, CP2696 caliper (both fitted in January this year), AN's 13mm reservoir & braided hoses, this works well for me (the Guzzi has what, 4x the stopping power for an extra 50kg & ~50bhp) - I've spent most of my life riding bikes that need a good haul on the brakes & a prayer (not good for an atheist) in emergencies - getting used to 'modern' brakes is taking a little time & pain!
Click to expand...
Glad your on the mend mike... and agree for a heavy bike the 1200 sport has fantastic front end
Stoppers.
Still wish I hadn't sold mine :confused:
 
How did you overbalance ? Once the wheels are turning, even at very low speed the bike usually stays upright, due to the weight of the wheels and centripetal force. Did you come to a dead stop and just sit there ? A while back, I was teaching my grand-daughter how to ride a push-bike. The very first thing I told her, was the wheels have to be turning or the bike will fall over. She simply pedalled off down the street like an expert.
I recently got sent to the back of the grid at a race meeting because I was idling forward with both of my feet on the footrests just before the start
 
Mike Sullivan said:
acotrel wrote: ' You can only go as fast as you can stop. '

Sometimes even that is too fast, my Guzzi 1200 Sport (another twin with a great racing heritage) has twin 4 piston Brembo's upfront. I locked the front wheel on a dry road, at 5mph 2 weeks ago, lost balance & ended up with a broken collarbone, bent gear lever, broken footrest & some other cosmetic damage; I can't believe the price of Guzzi spares compared to Commando (£90 for a plastic headlight trim!). I'd suggest the critical point is to balance breaking ability with engine performance & riding style (& I probably need some training wheels at the back :( )

Back to BI, on the Commando, I've RGM's 12" disk, CP2696 caliper (both fitted in January this year), AN's 13mm reservoir & braided hoses, this works well for me (the Guzzi has what, 4x the stopping power for an extra 50kg & ~50bhp) - I've spent most of my life riding bikes that need a good haul on the brakes & a prayer (not good for an atheist) in emergencies - getting used to 'modern' brakes is taking a little time & pain!
Click to expand...
Hi Mike, thanks for your input. That’s the system I m going for. It Comes with a braided hose although the mk3 has 2 hoses As standard.Rgm ask you what length hose you require.what did you do about that?
 
Fast Eddie said:
I know it might sound like more blah-blah... but I’d argue it’s important to remember that ‘feel’ and overall set up is almost as important as outright braking power.

People often say they have all the brake their bike can handle cos it’ll lock the wheel, or make the tyre squeal. Well, a bicycle can lock the wheel, but we don’t fit bicycle brakes to motorcycles!

Suspension, tyres, correct stance of the bike all help to ensure the tyre is correctly loaded and is able to handle the braking forces. As does correctly applied lever pressure, and the squeezing a brick feel of stock based set ups certainly doesn’t help with this.

So, actually, increasing the braking power at the caliper end without increasing the feel at the lever end can create an unpleasant brake.

A huge benefit to the Brembo master cyl assembly as sold by cNw is that it has a dog leg lever, this provides more feel, it also has an adjustable span, so it can be adjusted to give max bite at a point most comfortable to the rider. All of this stuff is important in getting good braking.
Click to expand...
This is so true! It's one reason I use the 12mm master with the Lockheed caliper. The feel is very good, just about the exact system I used on my old Norton road racer. If you go to the Vintage Brake website, there is a chart that recommends m/c size based on caliper piston size. It really does help if you follow the guidelines.
 
concours said:
Day time? Was your High (main) beam in use?
Click to expand...

Daytime with main beam in use, red helmet and a jacket with neon yellow applications.
Like a parrot.
But i was still invisble to him.

Yes. Equal pressure on both pistons.
But that doesnt matter.
Its about even distribution of the brake forces and compensating the heat expansion of the disc.
If both components are fixed the expanding disc will try to push back the pads into the caliper resulting in fading brakes.

EVERY modern brake has a floating component.
You wont find one with both caliper and disc fixed.
Why would brake manufacturers make an effort about making expensive inner rotors with float rings instead of making cheap solid disks ?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top