First Post - How to identify an 'S' type

Hi,
I am about to buy a Norton Commando to restore. It has been advertised as a 1971 S type. I want to restore it to original and would like to get confirmation that it is in fact an S type and not a Roadster or Fastback. The registration number is ELP 709J (UK registered as 1971 bike) and the engine and frame numbers are 141670.
I am buying at the end of this week and possibly paying a premium for an S type so need to make sure.
It has a GRP tank and side panels but these could have been changed. Are there any frame or other cycle part clues?
Hope someone can help.
regards Nick

The serial number of the last S made is 135088, June 1970, so I would say that you are looking at a reproduction S. 141670 is a 1971 production number. What you are looking at probably has the oil tank on the side. The real S models had the oil tank central in front of the battery and behind the air filter. You don't have to pay a premium for the S model unless you want to. 141670 was probably originally a Fastback MKII.



Dave
69S

141670 was probably originally a Fastback MKII

Click to expand...

Why a Fastback and not a Roadster or ( ) Hi-rider? The '71 Fasbacks were not as popular.

I'm just guessing off what I think is a Roy Bacon list, and 141717 is listed as the last Fastback MKII. I have no other reason, as you know they could have done anything.

Anyhow, welcome Nick.

Another thing, Nick, there is hardly any way to know that a bike was originally an S model unless you have one that shows the original bill of sale as such, and I doubt if anyone has one of those. I know mine was because it had very few miles when I got it and nearly all stock items that seem to go with the model. In the number range it could have been an S, fastback or Roadster, there is very little difference in any of them through 70, except the fastback had a different oil tank. the mudguards were different too as well as some of the fairings and sheet metal. Look here http://www.classicbike.biz/Norton/Broch ... chures.htm for brochures of the different years.

Dave
69S

Yes, more hints. Is there a plate on the headstock with the same numbers on it?



Also note the steering stops on the headstock right below the bottom front rivet. The 71 frames had a whole different steering stop arrangement. In 69/70 that dog off the headstock just hit the lower crown to stop it, always making a rusty spot on both. The tube for the front steering mounted on the lower fork crown instead of the upper one like 71 on.



The 69/70 frame has a halo mount for the front light, completely different in 71, headlamp mounted off ears off the stanchions.



The headlamp shell has an ammeter in it, a switch for lights and 1 lamp for hi beam.



Also the kickstand is quite short and the centre stand mounts to brackets off the frame instead of the engine/gearbox cradle like the 71 up.



The early clocks look like this, I'm not sure what year they changed.



69/70 had no cush drive in the rear, that changed in 71, I'm not sure you can tell easily without taking apart the rear wheel.

Look at the left side panel for holes where the exhaust/silencer clamp may have beat a hole in it from the vibration, that is very indicative of an S model. Also the left side 1/2" nut on the isolation stud gets a flat spot beat on it from loose isos and exhausts. The 69/70 models had the 2 position ignition switch in the top front of the left side fixed panel and the right side panel has a dzus fastener holding the front on.



The bike you are looking at may be an early frame and later engine/gearbox because only the 69/70 models have the central tank, not that they can't be retrofitted in a later frame. These bikes can be assembled with nearly any year parts. If it's in bits and has not been running don't pay top dollar for it. At least here in the US we can pick up a ragged runner for 5-6KUSD, about 2-3K less than I rebuilt mine for, but I have plenty of good upgrades.

Also realize that production date and registration date can be quite different. Mine was made in April of 69 but not registered until April of 70, so according to the Vehicle Department it is a 70 model. Let me know if you have any other questions.

Dave
69S

NickG said:

the engine and frame numbers are 141670

The NOC site lists the same number as you for the last S however they list the date through to '71

Click to expand...

I expect it's probably a late 1970 Roadster or Fastback with "S" parts added?

The NOC numbers are not always that accurate, other sources list the start of 1971 production as 141700 and not 141000.
http://www.classicbike.biz/Norton/Maint ... umbers.htm

NickG said:

The registration number is ELP 709J (UK registered as 1971 bike)

Click to expand...

1971 (J) UK vehicle registrations started on 1st August 1970, so the registration is no real help when identifying the model year.

I'd say that you need to make a quick phone call to the Vintage Motor Cycle Club. The factory records may show original trim and or colour for the bike. It's worth a try.

But what if the frame number doesn't match the engine/gearbox, or is non-existent? Nick hasn't answered that. That could make it a mixed year bike, despite the registration.

Dave
69S

Fantastic pictures really helpful. I think I am getting somewhere with this. Although it is possibly a total 'bitsa'. As follows:
- Bottom yolk/headstock looks right (as Daves pics)
- Side panels are as Daves image
- Side stand is short and has a curved bracket to fix it to the frame
- Center stand mounts to the gearbox cradle
- Clocks are as Daves image as is oil tank
- There no headlamp shell at all
- The headstock plate is missing although the guy selling assures me he will find it. apparently he took it off when the frame was powder coated
- The bike was first registered 01/01/1971 so maybe it was a late registered '70 or if '71 bikes were available late '70 I guess that would work. The engine and frame numbers on the log book match but thats not real proof I suppose.

If 135088 is really the last S then this one is probably a fastback with lots of S or Roadster bits (mostly '70)
I agreed a price of $3900 (if it was an S type) and there is a fair amount of work to do and some bits missing such as: Rear guard, headlamp, airbox, exhaust pipes (comes with S type silencers but no guards or brackets. I don't think the seller is trying to mislead me at all. I get the impression he thinks it is a genuine S. Not sure if i should walk away or offer less and build it as an S anyway. I'll sleep on it.

Thanks again for all of your help.

NickG said:

- Bottom yolk/headstock looks right (as Daves pics)
- Side panels are as Daves image
- Side stand is short and has a curved bracket to fix it to the frame
- Center stand mounts to the gearbox cradle
- Clocks are as Daves image as is oil tank
- There no headlamp shell at all

Click to expand...

A 1970 Roadster would also have had those parts as standard.
http://www.classicbike.biz/Norton/Broch ... Norton.pdf

If you have seen the bottom yoke (crown) notice in my picture there are pinch studs (different sizes on each end) going through the lower crown front to back. If they are there, that indicates a halo headlamp mount, not that you can't use the later mount, but you will need that if you want to reproduce the 69/70 frame with the halo headlamp mount. In 71 the pinch bolt went through from the side.



There is not much different between the 69/70 S and Roadster except the exhaust. The Fastback had a different oil tank and rear fairing. Look at the brochure.

You say the center stand mounts on the cradle, it should mount off brackets on a brace between the lower frame tubes, you can see it here.



Dave
69S

I'm curious if anyone knows if the silver tail light fairing identified an "S" or were they used on some roadster/R/SS models as well? Or were they even used on all "S" models? Or am I making this all up and need to get on meds...

I'm pretty sure all the FireFlake colours had the silver (Fireflake too) tail fairing, the yellow and solid colours had a black one.

Dave
69S

DogT said:

You say the center stand mounts on the cradle, it should mount off brackets on a brace between the lower frame tubes

Click to expand...

That one slipped past me. The frame change and engine cradle mounted stand supposedly started at 141783.

Side stand is short and has a curved bracket to fix it to the frame
- Center stand mounts to the gearbox cradle

Click to expand...

These two features don't match. A '71 model frame would have a long side stand and no bracket and the center stand mounted to the cradle while a '70 frame would have the short stand with the bolt on bracket, but centerstand bolted to the frame.
Since '71's are notorious for breaking/losing the side stand pin, it could be a '71 with an aftermarket, bolt up side stand?

"Side stand is short and has a curved bracket to fix it to the frame"

I think he's talking about the 69/70 one, the curved bracket is the part that bolts to the bracket on the frame and has the tongue to mount the side stand.

I'm not sure about the center stand, Nick may be confusing it?

Dave
69S

Been following this thread with interest as I am rebuilding my 1970 Roadster. I bought it in 1976 from the original owner and am as sure as I can be that it had not been modified or changed in any way. My frame/engine no is 140808 - I reckon it was probably assembed in October ish of 1970.

It is pretty clear that some parts were starting to cross over to 1971 features. Mine didn't have the chrome shrouds on the rear shocks - and although mine has the centre stand mounted on the frame, the gearbox cradle was drilled to take the later type stand.

Otherwise all feature exactly as DogT states - except mine had the lower pipes of course.

Oh, and the other differentiating feature is the round chain guard -unlike the 71 on straight one.

FInally - mine is Fireflake Golden Bronze but defintely came with the black fairing for the rear lamp. I've never actually seen a silver one. Could it have been a fitment for the US market?

The only way to really be sure is to verify against the factory build records as already mentioned. The VMCC as well as the NOC have these.

I attached a couple of pictures of my '70's side stand set-up. I think its the correct 'clamp' frame mount, but the wrong side stand?