First Post- Help ID My Bike

Hello,
In an attempt to ID my bike, so I can embark on its future restoration, I have run into some conflicting information.

FYI-Motor and frame numbers match: 20M3S/145099. It will need a full restoration!

The Norvill reference information indicates I have: 1971, Mark 111, 750cc , Commando, It happens to be a Roadster.

My point of confusion is, the Norvill Reference also indicates that the 1995 850cc Engine,# 325001 and later, is a Mark 111.

Do I indeed have a Mark 111?

With the wealth of information contained in these forums I would like to narrow down the informations that pertains to my model. I am attempting to accumulate a concise list of what this restoration will involve and particularly want to research and correct the known problematic areas. Notice I didn't reefer to them as improvements, I have been paying attention!

I found this incredible site back in early July and instantly became a junky. I have already spent endless hours gawking at your beautiful bikes, reading your rebuild threads and wallowing in the endless wealth of tech information.
Gary

Hello Gary, Norton nomenclature is a complicated thing but Commandos are relatively straightforward when compared with the pre-war models. There always seems to have been a certain amount of classification after the event.

750s, certainly the earlier versions were not generally referred to my 'mark' numbers, rather by year of production and trim type. It appears from subsequent research though that the factory did have such a system for internal use but they applied it separately to each body style type.

By the time the 850s came along, the general public were referring to Commandos by Mk numbers thus when most of us refer to a MkIII Commando, we mean a MkIII 850

Basically, the Mk number always needs to be prefixed by the capacity to avoid confusion. In terms of ordering parts, you need to identify which model year yours relates to. The published lists are not 100% correct. The best thing is to post some photos for identification.

You have a 1971 Commando Roadster. As mentioned previously the mark number is not as useful as the serial number when looking for parts or information.

Greg

Thanks for the replies. Knowing that the MK3 is generally a reference to the 850cc will be helpful.

Sorry pictures wont be available for a while.

Using the search function is not an easy task. In an attempt to narrow down information for my 71 750 the search function returned the following results:
71 Roadster -only 2 results
1971 Roadster - 2114 results
71 Commando -11,787 results with the majority of the results containing Commando

At least I can now refrain from searching for variations of MK3 which returned:
MK 111 -322 results
Mark 3 -1599
MK3 -1771

The 1971 Roadster category looks promising. I guess what I need now is a tutorial on returning search results for my bike.

thanks again,
Gary

T95 said:

The Norvill reference information indicates I have: 1971, Mark 111, 750cc , Commando, It happens to be a Roadster.

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The Norvil info is misleading, as there were no 750 MkIII Roadster models! Roadsters went straight from MkII to MkIV even though the Roadster MkIIs were built to 'MkIII' spec.


750cc
Original Commando 4/68-3/69
750 R 3/69-9/69
750S 3/69-6/70
Fastback 3/69-8/70
Fastback II 9/70-12/70
Fastback III 1/71-12/71
Fastback IV 1/72-3/73
Fastback LR (Long Range) 4/71-12/71
Fastback LR MkIV 1/72-2/73
Roadster 3/70-12/70
Roadster II 1/71-12/71
(there were no MkIII Roadsters, apparently!)
Roadster IV 1/72-2/73
Roadster V 3/73-10/73
SS (Street Scrambler) 3/71-10/71
PR (Production Racer) 4/71-10/73
Hi-Rider 5/71-12/71
Hi-Rider IV 1/72-2/73
Hi-Rider V 3/73-10/73
Interstate 1/72-2/73
Interstate V 3/73-10/73
850cc
Roadster 1 4/73-12/73
Roadster 1A 9/73-2/75
Roadster 2/2A 1/74-2/75
Roadster 3 2/75-9/77
Interstate 1 4/73-12/73
Interstate 1A 9/73-2/75
Interstate 2/2A 1/74-2/75
Interstate 3 2/75-9/77
Hi-Rider 1 4.73-12/73
Hi-Rider 2 1/74-2/75
Hi-Rider 3 3/75-?
John Player Replica 11/73-2/75


http://www.nortonownersclub.org/models/commando

L.A.B.
For future clarification I guess you agree I should abandon any reference to my bike as an mk3. Should I then just substitute 1971 Roadster or is there a better way to identifier her?

FYI I know the history of this machine. It is a 1971, no disc brakes, basically a stock machine without any major modifications.

T95 said:

L.A.B.
For future clarification I guess you agree I should abandon any reference to my bike as an mk3. Should I then just substitute 1971 Roadster or is there a better way to identifier her?

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Yes, as the Roadster MkII model was produced from 1/71-12/71 (all production dates are approximate) so it can be regarded as a "1971" Roadster, unlike some Commando "marks" which were only produced for a few months (Fastback II-for instance) and others lasted over a year!

L.A.B
So is the MK2 monicker also a reliable indicator that I can use?

I am looking for accurate and hopefully consistent identifiers of vintage & model , say to identify components of the motor, transmission and frame. I realize body components change with the model.

Sorry to hit this from both sides but I believe the Norvill info indicates MK2 is synonymous with 1970

Thanks for your patience

T95 said:

Sorry to hit this from both sides but I believe the Norvill info indicates MK2 is synonymous with 1970

Click to expand...

I suggest that you completely disregard the Norvil info, as the information it contains is incomplete and therefore I consider it to be misleading, and yes they should know better than to publish such an inaccurate list, but it simply isn't possible to equate a mark number of all models to a certain production period, or year.


A few apparent errors I've noted from the NORVIL LIST

"MkI 750 Fastback" = A minor point but the original "750 Commando" (4/68-3/69) was not initially known as a Fastback (or MkI) until the later 750 R & 750 S models were introduced. Also there's no mention of the 750 R at all, or the 750 S model both of which were produced from 3/69.

"131257 1970 II 750 Fastback S-Type Roadster" "Fastback" (3/69-8/70) production apparently lasted to August 1970. The Fastback II only lasted for the last three months of that year (9/70-12/70). The first 750 Roadster model (3/70-12/70) was simply known as a 750 "Roadster".
"131257" is in fact from March 1969 and is the serial number of the first 20M3S 750S model.

"1971 III 750 Fastback Roadster SS HiRider Fastback Long Range (Steel Tank)" Fastback became MkIII, but the Roadster became Roadster II-not Roadster III.

http://www.nortonownersclub.org/models/commando
Roadster

NOC said:

The Roadster was introduced for the 1970 season and followed the 'S' Type of the previous year and the Fastback before that. It took its styling from the 'S' Type but with a conventional exhaust system and together with the Fastback became the mainstay of the range. In 1971, a Mk.II was announced, this having larger section tyres and a cush drive in the rear hub.

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"1973 I 850 Hi-Rider Interstate" The '73 850 Roadster Mk1 model doesn't exist-according to Norvil!

" II IIA 850 Roadster HiRider Interstate" JPN does not exist either-according to Norvil!

L.A.B.,
I have a list I got years ago saying that the first Commando "model" was built in Aug. 67 number 123666 and the "first production machine" was made in Feb 68 number 126125. Can you verify this or not? Just wondering if my list is anywhere viable and if you know if there are any 67 machines out there anywhere that may have escaped from the factory?

Dave
69S

Gary, you're entering the dark and gloomy world of British factories during the days of a dying industry. Nortons issued new parts books 'now and then' and never referred to Mks in them. We have the urge to classify but buyers then just wanted the latest colour.

If you're ordering engine parts, mention of the 20M3S prefix will tell a dealer all they need to know. New parts for a 750 gearbox will not be year specific and "1971 Roadster " is all that's needed to explain the trim and cycle parts

Your bike is clearly not a 1972 as it's a 20M3S and if it has the later type fork clamps (not the Dominator style) then it's not a 1970 model so a process of elimination doesn't leave much alternative to what is commonly known as a 1971 model.

If you're intending to become a full-blown rivet counter then you'll need to buy every book, brochure and period road test you can find to ensure that you only have 'correct for build period' parts but even then, it may not be how it left the factory. You'll find some very knowledgeable people on this forum but few who would condemn you for mixing and matching parts to get a bike on the road.

DogT said:

I have a list I got years ago saying that the first Commando "model" was built in Aug. 67 number 123666 and the "first production machine" was made in Feb 68 number 126125. Can you verify this or not?

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All I can say is that those numbers tally with the "official" numbers-as listsed by Roy Bacon and others.

I believe there were actually two pre-production "show" models? 123666 was (possibly?) one of those, and I think both were supposed to have had the all silver finish, with orange seats and green tank blobs!

L.A.B.,
Boy, that's nice to know. I have heard about the 'silver' models, but never seen one. The AT&T Death Star would be real interesting too.

Thanks, finished hijacking this thread.

Dave
69S
Hope to start it Wednesday. It's only been 20 years.

If you're ordering engine parts, mention of the 20M3S prefix will tell a dealer all they need to know. New parts for a 750 gearbox will not be year specific and "1971 Roadster " is all that's needed to explain the trim and cycle parts

Click to expand...

79000 Beautiful, thats great information!

Your bike is clearly not a 1972 as it's a 20M3S and if it has the later type fork clamps (not the Dominator style) then it's not a 1970 model so a process of elimination doesn't leave much alternative to what is commonly known as a 1971 model.

Click to expand...

I will look into the fork clamps after researching what to look for. What ever is there is original equipment.

If you're intending to become a full-blown rivet counter then you'll need to buy every book, brochure and period road test you can find to ensure that you only have 'correct for build period' parts but even then, it may not be how it left the factory. You'll find some very knowledgeable people on this forum but few who would condemn you for mixing and matching parts to get a bike on the road.

Click to expand...

I haven't come up with a plan yet. Likely a classic stock look. No rivet counting. My biggest concern at this point is ensuring I am buying good quality parts that are for my model.

Thanks, finished hijacking this thread.

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Dave , no problem I hope this topic will help others as well. I have been following your build and your SS is looking sweet!
So Wednesday is the Day! I hope she purrs for you on the first kick!

I suggest that you completely disregard the Norvil info, as the information it contains is incomplete and therefore I consider it to be misleading, and yes they should know better than to publish such an inaccurate list, but it simply isn't possible to equate a mark number of all models to a certain production period, or year.

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Thanks L.A.B. I will disregard the Norvil info. I'll ask if there is any accuracy of serial numbers relating to the year of build, only because another source put # 145099 as a 1971 model.

T95 said:

I will disregard the Norvil info. I'll ask if there is any accuracy of serial numbers relating to the year of build, only because another source put # 145099 as a 1971 model.

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145099 is certainly from 1971, and there's no dispute about that whatsoever. There should be a production date stamp on the headstock certification plate (and "145099" would be somewhere around March '71 production, I think?) although I'm not sure I would entirely agree with 79x100 that just stating 20M3S is enough to tell a dealer all he would need to know, as 20M3S was used on the 750 S 3/69-on to identify that model from the original 20M3, and 20M3S was eventually used on all Commando models prior to serial number 200000 (start of MkIV or '72 production) as each model changed to the camshaft driven points, so the engine number "145099" or "20M3S 145099" needs to be quoted or '71 Roadster".

T95 said:

I will look into the fork clamps after researching what to look for. What ever is there is original equipment.

Click to expand...

From serial number 141783 (Jan. '71) sealed non-adjustable headstock bearings were fitted in place of the previous adjustable loose ball "cup and cone" bearings.

The sealed bearing arrangement is easily identified by the steering stem nut, which is placed underneath the lower yoke/triple tree, as the stem was then fixed to the upper yoke/tree, this sealed bearing system continued until the end of Commando production.