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E85 fuel

Discussion in 'Norton Motorcycles (Modern)' started by Voodooo, Jan 13, 2019.

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  1. Voodooo

    Voodooo VIP MEMBER

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  2. norton bob

    norton bob

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    Nov 29, 2013
    E05 left in my bike ate the bottom of the alloy chamber and two bikes tank liners, It also ate the filler pipe on the Mercedes and the fuel pump on the van £1500.!!! We don't have a choice. Wake up !!. Thinking more about it,--- You yanks pay far too little for fuel so a Gov subsidy ,paid by you probably squares that up and keeps those usefull backhanders going to the big boys. Having to buy new vehicles regularly also keeps those Poor Germans and Orientals in work and compensates them for losing the war too. They did lose it?, didn't they??.Its clear they won the peace.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  3. Clive

    Clive VIP MEMBER

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    Jun 9, 2017
    And remember it was the British military (Maj Ivan Hirst) who got VW up and running again after the war. Dohhhhh.
    And we took all their old worn out machine tools into our factories as war reparation so they had to create a machine tool industry to fill their plants with shiny new production kit. Double Dohhhh...
     
  4. Voodooo

    Voodooo VIP MEMBER

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    Aug 10, 2016
    Well when you buy in bulk it’s cost less.
    I guess I’m confused by your point here.
     
  5. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

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    Oct 4, 2013
    I think his main point is that E fuel corrodes alloy tanks.

    Whereas the common thinking on here is that an alloy tank is the best precaution when using E fuel!

    So... does it or doesn’t it eat alloy tanks...?
     
  6. Clive

    Clive VIP MEMBER

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    Jun 9, 2017
    Looks like it can. The studies I've read up on show that there are 3 types of corrosion but pitting corrosion is a form of galvanic reaction. This is significantly helped along by water held in ethanol;

    'The pitting corrosion must be developed in a medium with sufficient conductivity so that it can allow the movement of charged species, and in this case, the presence of water in ethanol ensures this condition'

    The water held in ethanol is the big problem; it separates out in the tank and corrodes the base of a steel tank or soaks into a nylon tank and causes distortion.

    I'm still not sure whether any of the many additives such as Startron etc can help.......
     
  7. norton bob

    norton bob

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    Nov 29, 2013
    The watery acid that lies in the bottom of tanks/carbs where Ethanol is stored will slowly eat its way through solid alloy or steel, It just takes time. Thats why ethanol is stored in special tanks at the Depot and only added to the delivery tankers at the last minuit. They also refuse to allow it in the Isle of Mann for that reason,and its barred from use in Aircraft . If ethanol is the future (I hope not ,should be Hydrogen) then it should be supplied in 100% form and used in engines designed for it,not used in engines that WILL fail from its use sooner or later. I know of plenty of guys who had NO problem with Eth , then they did!.Just takes time. The only current answer for us in the UK is to buy it and use it. Don't store it.Not easy if you want to run 5/6 bikes. Much worse in damp cold climates,watch out for carb freezing.And restrict tank breathers when not in use,( Expansion in a fully sealed tank can blow the tank!).ETH laced fuel will also strip that paint job if spilled.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
  8. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

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    Oct 4, 2013
    I doubt any pro ethanol Green proponent has ever calculated the TOTAL carbon footprint of this, including all the rework and repairs, dumped fuel, fuel leaked out of leaking tanks (esp I’m the marine world) etc.
     
  9. Clive

    Clive VIP MEMBER

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    Jun 9, 2017
    This was correct a year ago - verify if you wish - the only ethanol free fuel in the uk is Esso Supreme+.

    But not in Scotsland or the South West - you are lucky enough to get an Ethanol in yours.
     
  10. Britfan60

    Britfan60 VIP MEMBER

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    Jan 5, 2014
    TO GO OFF SUBJECT AGAIN.........We yanks pump 81% of our own oil consumption. 19% is foreign. How much is pumped in Europe and the UK? Pretty sure that's why you think we pay too much.
     
  11. BritTwit

    BritTwit VIP MEMBER

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    Aug 25, 2009
    The problem seems to be exacerbated as the E levels increase beyond 10%.
    Boat owners have struggled with the problem for some time.
    Here is a piece I got from a friend who had problems with his boat some years ago:

    In the case of aluminum tanks, aluminum is a highly conductive metal that relies on an oxide layer for its corrosion protection properties. Low levels of ethanol, such as E10 (10%), are usually not a problem in aluminum tanks because the oxide layer provides a good measure of protection. The problem occurs when the ethanol content is increased. As some nations are contemplating today.

    There are two mechanisms that occur with ethanol. Both mechanisms are a result of the hydroscopic property of ethanol, meaning it absorbs water. The more ethanol in the fuel, the more water there will be in the fuel tank. Water not only causes the tank to corrode, it also causes the corrosion particles to clog fuel filters, fuel systems, and damage engine components. The corrosion rate can be accelerated under a number of conditions if other contaminating metals are present such as copper which may be picked up from brass fittings or as a low level contaminant in the aluminum alloy. Chloride, which is a chemical found in salt water, will also accelerate corrosion. In the long term, corrosion can perforate the aluminum. In the worse case it could cause a fire and/or explosion hazard. Boat fuel tanks are often located under the deck next to the engine where the operator might not be aware of a leak until it was too late.

    The second mechanism that can occurs with the increased use of ethanol based fuel in aluminum tanks is galvanic corrosion. Gasoline fuel is not conductive, but the presence of ethanol or ethanol and water will conduct electricity. The galvanic process that occurs to aluminum trim tabs, stern drives, shaft couplings, etc. will occur within the aluminum fuel tank. Boat builders are able to protect exterior aluminum boat equipment with sacrificial anodes known as zincs. Sacrificial anodes are not a feasible option on a motorcycle fuel tank interior.
     
  12. TonyA

    TonyA VIP MEMBER

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    Jan 16, 2015
    I always run some type of treatment to the fuel . Its a habit now. As soon as i get home I put a measured dose in the tank and run it for a minute to fill the pump and injectors .
     
  13. BritTwit

    BritTwit VIP MEMBER

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    For E10 fuels I would think all you need to do when storing the bike for an extended period is to add stabilizer, and fill the fuel to the neck of the tank to eliminate any air layer internally that could hold moisture.
     
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  14. TonyA

    TonyA VIP MEMBER

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    Jan 16, 2015
    Sound advice !
     
  15. Voodooo

    Voodooo VIP MEMBER

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    Aug 10, 2016
    Well here’s the thing!
    All fuels corrode metals. Gasoline rust steel too. I don’t get any of the complaints on this thread.
    Nobody in their right mind stores fuel in a tank for long periods of time. All I keep hearing is off topic crying and bullshit. Nothing but excuses as to why it’s bad. As if gasoline is the perfect fuel.
     
  16. Voodooo

    Voodooo VIP MEMBER

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    Aug 10, 2016
    Why is it so hard for many of you to realize that with a flex fuel tune you can run unleaded or ethanol in any ratio?

    MANY people run E85 in freezing temps without ANY issues you all are crying about.
    It hasn’t froze.
    It hasn’t rusted out my injectors.
    My fuel lines haven’t split or rusted.
    No water in my oil ( confirmed by oil analysts)
    No fuel freeze up.

    If I want to run straight E85 in the winter I can. If I want to store my vehicle for months or years even gasoline goes bad and yes it will still rust a steel tank.
    If I run E85 and want to store my bike or vehicle all I have to do is add unleaded gasoline to the tank. It’s that damn easy.

    You all act like gasoline never causes any problems and that it has no issues over a period of time.
    You act as if gasoline isn’t run by the government.
    You act as if it’s the perfect fuel.

    As of now, and ever since I bought my bikes brand new, it’s only ever ran Sunoco 260GT RACE fuel. No ethanol at all. It’s better then the shit pump gas you all run.
    So I see no problems of anyone I know that runs 10% ethanol from pump fuel in any of their vehicles or cars.

    Ever see old gas and what it does? Turns into a brownie and rust metal, eats pits into aluminum, oxidation to aluminum, makes plastic brittle, tarnishes everything. So no....gasoline isn’t perfect when stored for periods of time.

    Either is E85!

    As I said, if you decide to store any fuel into any of your bikes or other vehicles that’s your own damn fault.

    All I care about is a cooler running engine, a cleaner running engine, and more power!
    E85 gave me more power than 100 octane race gas AND ITS 1/4 the cost!
     
  17. gchoppin

    gchoppin

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    Sep 26, 2017
    We can still buy ethanol free fuel in the states, it's just 87 octane unless you buy racing fuel which is an issue as well. The corn farmers and ethanol treatment manufactures are profit from a stupid government mandate.
     
  18. Voodooo

    Voodooo VIP MEMBER

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    Aug 10, 2016
    How do I close this thread?
    It’s become completely off topic. All it has become is farming, government and a bitch fest of why they don’t like e85.

    Nothing resourceful has become of it.
     
  19. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

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    Oct 4, 2013
    Scott you can’t close a thread that’s got replies to your first post.

    Here’s my advice FWIW:

    You asked a question that you are clearly getting a zero repsonce to. Thus it seems clear no one on this forum can help with your original question.

    Since then, the thread has become an off topic debate about the generic political / principle issues with ethanol fuel, which was not your original question.

    And reading this debate is winding you up!

    What you do in these cases is simply stop reading and posting on this thread.

    That’s what I do, I often say “I’ve said all I have to say and am now signing off from this post”.

    And that’s exactly what I do.

    It leads to a more tranquil life...
     
    Voodooo and Raphi like this.
  20. norton bob

    norton bob

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    Nov 29, 2013
    If you post car questions on a site that is predominately about old bikes you risk getting posts from a lot of old bike nuts. Who ARE getting issues with your wonder fuel. I'm glad that you are glad with your choises. Just unhappy not to have a choise .
     
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