Dynojet Autotune for 961 Sport

Deano · Sep 5, 2020

Hi all,

Apologies if this has been asked before, but has anyone on here gone down the route of trying to sort out the poor idle & low speed running issue on a 961 by using a Dynojet Power Commander 5 & Autotune together?

I've already made all the preliminary changes, such as replacing the coil & sensors etc with Bosch parts, NGK iridium plugs & upgraded leads & fitted O2 sensor eliminator plugs. Doing all of this has made no real improvement to the idle or low speed running which is still snatchy.

I'm at the point now where I'm happy to go down the Power Commander route if it nails this issue once & for all. So the questions are, can a PC5 & Autotune be fitted together on a 961 & work with the existing ECU? Can I fit these myself, which I would prefer to do if possible? Does the Autotune remove the need to have the bike mapped on a dyno, or is this still necessary?

If anyone has done this already I would love to hear how you've got on please.!

My bike is a 2014 961 Sport Euro 3 model with de-cat pipe & factory loud long pipes fitted.

Many thanks in advance.

Deano · Sep 5, 2020

I should add to the above that the Autotune I am thinking of fitting would be the AT-300 dual channel unit & I may also block off the balance pipe between the throttle bodies if that helps, so that each cylinder works totally independently. I believe this will also require the exhaust downpipes to have 18mm sensor bosses welded in in place of the factory smaller ones & then the pipes re-chromed.

Cheers.

BritTwit · Sep 6, 2020

There is one 961 owner on this site who has fitted a PC on his bike with good results - Pingu-nz
Hopefully he will chime in.

TonyA has done a great deal of work to improve idling and running issues by other means, like O2 sensor eliminators, and mods to the throttle bodies, etc.
Hopefully, he will chime in here too.

Can you elaborate on your problems?
Is the poor idle the inability to idle, causing the engine to shutdown, or the wild idle syndrome causing high idle when hot?
Low speed running – is this flat spots in the power delivery at certain RPM points?

Deano · Sep 6, 2020

The main issue my bike has is poor/erratic idle & low speed running below about 2000rpm or so. It's horrible in traffic where it will splutter & cut out at junctions etc, rather than just settle into a nice steady idle. It doesn't always do it but when it does, which is often, it's enough to take the pleasure out of riding it. Filtering through traffic is a real pain, which requires a lot of blipping on the throttle to prevent it dying. Once you're up & away above 2000rpm it runs fine. I always start the bike & let it settle properly before touching the throttle & riding off.

My thinking around taking the PC5 & autotune route as a possible solution is to sort out the fuelling so that the mixture is correct at all engine speeds from idle all the way up through. There do seem to be a few happy owners who have had a Power Commander fitted, which is helpful, but I've not read about anyone adding an autotune to one as well. If just fitting a Power Commander is enough on its own to sort the issue out I'm happy to stop there, but I note that Dynojet don't list a map for a 961 & I'm not sure if it would work with the Norton's ECU? Hopefully somebody more enlightened on the subject can elaborate.!

Thanks.

Dan Kyle · Sep 6, 2020

Deano said:
I always start the bike & let it settle properly before touching the throttle & riding off.

Thanks.

First I would not recommend this method of "warm up"

Start it , give it enough time for the oil to get everywhere, a few seconds, ride it. Even more so it you believe the furl mixture is incorrect at low RPM and throttle settings.
I am not saying give it full throttle, just ride a little easy until it has reached full temp.

Here is some info I found
https://bsd.uk.com/news/power-commander/2015-norton-commando-961-sport/
https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/power-commander-v-installed.23458/

Deano said:
Can I fit these myself, which I would prefer to do if possible? Does the Autotune remove the need to have the bike mapped on a dyno, or is this still necessary?
I should add to the above that the Autotune I am thinking of fitting would be the AT-300 dual channel unit & I may also block off the balance pipe between the throttle bodies if that helps, so that each cylinder works totally independently. I believe this will also require the exhaust downpipes to have 18mm sensor bosses welded in in place of the factory smaller ones & then the pipes re-chrom
Thanks.

Yes you can.
It is easier quicker and more accurate on a dyno, but that is the whole point of the autotune, so you can map it without a dyno.

The advantage of a dyno is you can run in higher gears with a higher load on the engine. This works better as the engine is at any given RPM LONGER, this gives the Wide Band O2 sensor more time to get a reading.
The longer you are at an exact RPM and exact throttle setting the better the reading, the better the map will turn out.

My backround, is we are a Power Commander Distributor in the USA, one of two. I could only guess how many maps I have made, thousands.
We stock thousands of Power Commanders.

Do not block off the balance pipes. when making the map

If the bike has "pair Valves" those need to be blocked of while making the map.
Engine temp is very important. It needs to be 170 to 190 degrees F

Yes you will need to weld in 18 MM bungs to the pipes, we sell the bungs, they should be as close to the cylinder head as possible, the closer they are to the engine, the faster and more accurate the reading, by more accurate I mean the RPM reading, throttle position reading are matching what the O2 sensor is reading.

Here is some more map making info

RC51.org Dyno Chart & Tuning Basics page

]

Dan Kyle · Sep 6, 2020

How maps are made, this is from a few years back

How Maps are made on a Dynojet 250 Dyno with a Power Commander.

How Maps Are Made, on a Dynojet Dyno

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There have been some posts about other fuel injection systems, and while they may be able to be made to work fine and some have more features than a Power Commander, it is really how good a map you (we) can make that sets the Power Commander apart.
The Power Commander is the hardware, it is only as good as the software, the Map.

Dynojet has a software program called Tuning Link, it is there to aid in making maps.
What does Tuning Link do?

It allows us to set all the parameters involved in the making of the map.
Such as Air fuel Ratio, we can set it for 13.5 in one section of the map 13.2 in another and 13.0 in yet another. These numbers are just examples of numbers we can plug in any number.

Once we set the parameters, we can use Tuning link in one of two modes, the first is "roll on" this is used for throttle openings above 5%, I usually use this for 100% 80% 60% 40% and 20% above 5000RPM.
Roll on is just what it sounds like, we put the bike in the highest gear possible, start at as low an RPM as the bike will pull in a high gear at those different throttle positions and the bike climbs thru the RPM to redline.

Two things are happening as this is occuring.
One we have an electric "brake" or load cell, this puts a real world load on the rear wheel and can slow down or hold the bike to any RPM.
We need that as the second thing going on is we are reading the bikes Air Fuel Ratio, using a Wide Band O2 sensor.

After we reach redline and shut the throttle off, a chart comes on screen showing us the O2 reading from what ever RPM we started at to redline, we do a mouse click, and any differences from our preprogrammed settings are adusted for and sent to the Power Commander as a correction.

This is changing whatever map we started with in the Power Commander.
Depending on how close you are to start with and how perfect you want the map to be, this may take one run or 10. Each run getting a little better each time.
We do this at each throttle setting above 5 or 10%.

10% 20% 40% 60% 80% and 100%.

The Fuel changes are made on the 729 every 250RPM.

On Ducati's the lenghts of the exhausts are not always the same, and the rear cylinder tends to run hotter, this means the maps for the front and rear cylinders are different.

We make what are called advanced maps, this simply means there is a seperate map for each cylinder.

This takes twice as long to make.

More later.

Some pics below.
Picture 1 shows a screen shot of Tuning link software, in the center the map I am working on, on topwhat the parameters are and what the bike is doing.

Picture 2 In roll on mode, I pick a throttle % position start at a low RPM, (setable) in this case 100%, hold the throttle at that position, and the Eddy current adaptor holds the RPM at each RPM, in 250 RPM increaments for only as long as it takes to get a reading, usually about the same amount of time it would take to accerate on the road in 5th gear. Usually I do 100% runs in either 5th or 6th gear. After the run is made this graph pops up showing me the Air Fuel ratio, them I say OK, and any corrections that the map needs are automaticly done. Depending on how close the map is it may take 2 to 8 runs to get it right.

Picture 3 This is showing that eeverything is connected and working what map modes I am in, in this case advanced, and keeping an eye on my Eddy currect brake temp, I try and keep it under 300 degrees F, the screen turns yellow at 301 Degrees, and red at 350 degrees, here you can see it is at 335.6 degrees.

Picture 4 Does the pipe get hot?? You bet, on the rear pipe there is no air movement, this is a ti header, so it turns bright blue.

Picture 5 Does the tire get hot? Depends how much I want to let it cool down, this is after making two maps, with no stopping, the tire is hot and sticky, but still not damaged.

https%3A//i.imgur.com/MKpR2h0.jpg[/img]']

https%3A//i.imgur.com/u5Io8ab.jpg[/img]']

https%3A//i.imgur.com/vUVxOY1.jpg[/img]']

https%3A//i.imgur.com/h4G7C3x.jpg[/img]']

TonyA · Sep 6, 2020

Deano said:
The main issue my bike has is poor/erratic idle & low speed running below about 2000rpm or so. It's horrible in traffic where it will splutter & cut out at junctions etc, rather than just settle into a nice steady idle. It doesn't always do it but when it does, which is often, it's enough to take the pleasure out of riding it. Filtering through traffic is a real pain, which requires a lot of blipping on the throttle to prevent it dying. Once you're up & away above 2000rpm it runs fine. I always start the bike & let it settle properly before touching the throttle & riding off.

My thinking around taking the PC5 & autotune route as a possible solution is to sort out the fuelling so that the mixture is correct at all engine speeds from idle all the way up through. There do seem to be a few happy owners who have had a Power Commander fitted, which is helpful, but I've not read about anyone adding an autotune to one as well. If just fitting a Power Commander is enough on its own to sort the issue out I'm happy to stop there, but I note that Dynojet don't list a map for a 961 & I'm not sure if it would work with the Norton's ECU? Hopefully somebody more enlightened on the subject can elaborate.!

Thanks.

Hello , Can you tell us what map you have ? I think you may have an SC ecu ? My suggestion would be to look into getting a Delta 400 , with SXTune and bring it to a dyno tuning shop . You will have a good starting point and you can get it taliored to work well at all RPM's . This can be money well spent . Is it possible your map is wrong for your setup or a sensor going bad ? Have you done the Bosch sensors , Coils etc to establish a starting point ?

TonyA · Sep 6, 2020

BritTwit said:
There is one 961 owner on this site who has fitted a PC on his bike with good results - Pingu-nz
Hopefully he will chime in.

TonyA has done a great deal of work to improve idling and running issues by other means, like O2 sensor eliminators, and mods to the throttle bodies, etc.
Hopefully, he will chime in here too.

Can you elaborate on your problems?
Is the poor idle the inability to idle, causing the engine to shutdown, or the wild idle syndrome causing high idle when hot?
Low speed running – is this flat spots in the power delivery at certain RPM points?

I have never modified my throttle bodies.

Deano · Sep 6, 2020

Thanks for the helpful replies so far guys!

A few points of clarification from the responses so far:

When I said that I start the engine & let it settle before moving off, I just mean for 15-20 seconds to let the ECU get its base reference points. I don’t wait for the engine to warm up.

All the recommended upgrades to the sensors, coils, plugs, leads etc have already been made as mentioned in the initial post.

If I went down the autotune route & fitted the18mm O2 sensors, they would be welded in place of the existing ones at the bottom of the downpipes (headers).

How do I check what ECU type or version my bike has? Apologies if this is an obvious question....

Thanks.

TonyA · Sep 7, 2020

You have a 2014 , so you probably have the black SC ecu like me . Unless the bike has been retrofitted with a OMEX later buy a dealer or Norton. If you have the SC , you should get the SC Delta adapter cable and CAN interface box. Download the free SXCar software and now you can see the current map installed . You will plug into the OBD2 connector behind the seat for the connection. Once you have this SC adapter cable and CAN interface box , you have the option of getting the Original SC unlocked and use SXTune software (free from SC Delta) to make changes. The other better option is to buy the New Delta 400 ECU ( fully unlocked with the Norton 961 Map installed ) . You will now have the CAN interface and cable to use with it. To get the most out of the ECU , you should see a dyno tuner who can help you make changes and testing it on the dyno. I am running the Delta 400 ECU ( Norton 961 with race cans map ) and while not perfect it's not too bad as is ! I certainly don't have the problems you are describing. I would not advise going the Norton OMEX route only because you will be locked out of it and can only go through a dealer (if any exist) or Norton and extra wiring , tip module , relay and adapter cable must be fitted. BUT , others on this forum have gone the OMEX route and said good things about it. Finally , remember you need a laptop computer running Windows 10 with a USB port .

Deano · Sep 7, 2020

Thanks for the excellent info Tony.

There appears to be two distinctly different approaches to sorting this issue out, namely either fit a Dynojet PC and (possibly) an Autotune or replace the stock ECU with an unlocked Delta unit instead. I guess there are pros & cons with each option, as there are with all choices in life. I did, however, read the separate thread started by SCS-Delta & was most impressed by the help & support offered by the company. I do like the idea that they can supply an unlocked ECU with a map pre-installed, which at least gives me a decent starting point.

I guess the next thing for me now is to identify what I already have & then decide which is the best route to go down, taking all the costs including dyno time & ongoing support if required etc into consideration.

Deano · Sep 12, 2020

TonyA said:
You have a 2014 , so you probably have the black SC ecu like me . Unless the bike has been retrofitted with a OMEX later buy a dealer or Norton.

Hi Tony, I've had a look and the ECU is an SC Typhoon V4 in a plain black case. Interestingly, I found the strip of sealing tape across the top edge already lifted from the outer case, so either somebody has been in there before or the adhesive on the tape has let go on its own. Either way, it allowed me to carefully remove the cover to take a peek inside & find out what it was.!

TonyA · Sep 13, 2020

Deano said:
Hi Tony, I've had a look and the ECU is an SC Typhoon V4 in a plain black case. Interestingly, I found the strip of sealing tape across the top edge already lifted from the outer case, so either somebody has been in there before or the adhesive on the tape has let go on its own. Either way, it allowed me to carefully remove the cover to take a peek inside & find out what it was.!

The Norton 961 is an adventure , to coin a phrase .

Deano · Sep 13, 2020

An adventure is certainly one way of describing it.!

zulu · Dec 28, 2023

Deano said:
An adventure is certainly one way of describing it.!

How did things turn out for you? Which approach did you finally take?
I am in the same position trying to decide on best approach.
Please let me know.

Dynojet Autotune for 961 Sport

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