Dyno questions

texasSlick said:
From reading these threads, I gather most of you are pursuing the dyno tests, exhaust analysis, and tweaks to air fuel ratio to wrest the last drop of power out of your engines. I know it would be an engineering headache, but you might consider modifying your cylinder heads to accept a second plug, and somehow building in a second magneto, or electronic ign. The results of the aircraft mag check procedure shows a significant increase in power is available.

Twin plugged heads are seen in many of the competitive bikes down here but is very difficult on a Norton twin head because of the design of the head. On the plus side the Norton head design is better than a Triumph twin head anyway. We can usually get higher compression without high domed pistons.

I have seen twin plugging down here on Triumph twins, Velo and Goldstar singles and Norton ES2s. Plus all the normal modern Manx and G50 engines. There may be others as wll I havent noticed.

But I have only ever seen a Norton twin plugged head once on an internet site. Never in real life.

When you go twin plug you need to retard the igniton. How much? Back to the dyno and Jennings plug tuning. I think my mate with the Velo came back about 6 or 8 degrees.

I know of two good mag options. For singles just go with a Morris Joe Hunt type twin mag. For twins Morris mags sell a splitter for a twin mag which gives you 4 plugs. You can even chose the lead colour :)

http://www.shop.morrismagneto.com/produ ... oductId=15

On a BMW I think it is probably easy to go twin plug.

The guy with the Vincent could be right if it is already a very good head. Generally speaking the worse the basic head design the more twin plugging will help.

But going this route you will also need to look a squish and port modifications and inlet tuning etc to see any real benefit. It's the package not the bling that makes good race bikes.
 
The heads in question for the Vincent use big squish bands, tuned inlet and exhaust ports, and a bathtub shaped combustion chambre. They are the work of John Trease. Compression is 10.5 to one.
The ignition is from Pazon, their "Special" unit. Pazon makes two different two plug setups, the "Special "one draws twice as much wattage as the regular two plug setup. In addition they made me up a curve for this specific engine at 28 degrees max advance. Standard Vincent is 38 degrees, but with the two plug heads and high comp we decided on 28 degrees.
http://www.pazon.com/ignition-system/sm ... ug-special
Cams are something pretty exotic as well, and carbs are 40 mm Dellorto pumpers. Hope it all works!

Glen
 
worntorn said:
Interesting post Texas. After reading it I located a youtube video showing the mag check procedure on some small airplane. The rpm drop with one mag was about 100, from 1700 on both to 1600 on the single mags. Allowable for that engine was a 125 rpm drop. This represents a substantial percentage of power lost with the single spark.
I have been told by a well repected Vincent engine builder that the two plug ignition in my Terry Prince heads was of no advantage. Looking at your info, I think the Vincent engine builder is wrong.

Don't forget that twin plugs in aircraft engines is entirely about safety.
And also that with twin plugs you use less advance - so running on only one plug will, naturally, show a drop in power, and revs...

Twin plugging was popular on a lot of race bikes in the 1930s - for a while.
It was found to give slightly better acceleration, but same top speeds.
With less reliable magnetos then, (1930s), they also found if one plug fouled and the bike continued on, at a slower pace, they then had the problem of did they stop to chase and change the duff plug, or continue on at a reduced pace.
Twin plug fad didn't last long...
 
Dyno questions


:shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: thats a CENTRAL Plug Head .

THIS is a TWIN Plug Head . :lol: :lol: :lol: :shock:

Dyno questions


The Culprit HERE Was this :

Dyno questions


:shock: :shock: :shock: :lol: SORRY , getting a bit of track here :

"To make a long story short, the pistons welded very nicely. In fact a steadier hand on my part would have resulted in a nice looking job. But, despite the lack of beauty in my welding, I was confident that it was structurally sound - well...at least as structurally sound as one can be when welding a piece that normal people would not consider mistreating in such a way. So, back to the mill to re-cut the valve pockets to a minimum depth, and then mock up with clay once again. With only a minimum of frustration I achieved valve to piston clearances of an acceptable distance." http://knuckleheadtheology.blogspot.com ... chive.html for all you Knucklehead . . . Fans . . . :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :D

Dyno questions


12 : 1 pistons .
Dyno questions
& someone thinks THESE are 10.5 : 1
Dyno questions


Wot the boffer iis / was , was Flame Propagation . With the Everest like peaks , & the plug on one side , it took a few days for the combustion to get across the TOP . So the High Crown pistons COULD produce less power than the 9.5 : 1 ' s .
NORTON TWINS haveing somewhat flatter crowns , the context is somewhat removed from this . But the Central Plug trip is obvious , it propogates outward evenly , time / distance wise .
And the Twin Plug suckers Fire it Both Sides of the Crown , saveing all sorts of bother & trauma . Then theres the chaps trying 14:1 compression on alcohol . Not a lot of room in the chamber at T.D.C.
 
This suckers only 137 bore x 152 stroke .

Dyno questions


Merlin . The Griffon is 152.5 x 167.6 . so dual plugs may be of some use .
 
The dual plug head has merit.

Back in HS, my friend and I both had Ford rangers, with the 2.3L 4 cyl.
Mine was a single plug version of a whopping 98HP,
he had the dual plug version with 112HP.
14 more HP by adding a second set of plugs, not too shabby.
 
JohnM makes a very good point....combustion chamber design has a major effect, and it is the whole package that is important. (Wish I was smart enough to know how to clip quotes from someone's post)

For brevity, I said a 50 rpm drop was typical....I have observed 25 to 100, and if memory serves me correctly (I haven't been behind a yoke in nearly 20 years), the drop was always the same on either mag. This indicates 1) each mag was performing optimally, and 2), the performance change is entirely due to 2 rather than 1 flame front.

The pics of destroyed pistons shows the effect of explosions (pinging or pinking).

Also, there was a good post regarding the air fuel change occurring in modern engines by advanced electronic technology. This is good info to illustrate principles involved in getting good fuel economy and power. Most of us with classic bikes would rather keep them back in the dark ages, rather than retrofit with the advanced stuff. For me, I'll buy a new super up to date whatever, if I want the up to date stuff.
 
The pistons in my short stroke 500cc Triumph were the usual 12 to one 650 pistons which in my engine gave a ratio of about 10 to one. The side of the crown away from the plug was always coked up after a lot of meetings, even though the mixture was always very lean. The best result I achieved was by welding a pad in the centre of the head and raising the two 10mm racing plugs then firing them through a wide slot between the valve seats (as was done on the early Gilera fours). It gave two problems - the head was softened due to the welding, and so the inlet port cracked behind the valve guide. Also the plugs used to fuel up, so I had to start the motor on the two original plugs, then swap the leads for racing. The trouble with twin plug heads is how do you know when they are all firing ? The advance required is substantially different, but detecting a drop of performance during racing is not so easy. With a Triumph motor it is possible to angle two small plugs to miss each other in the centre of the head, and I've seen it done on one of our very fast drag bikes years ago, I would not do that. I've seen the bathtub combustion chamber done on a Harley motor, I don't know whether I believe in that. The Norton head is far superior to the old Triumph 650 head. At least you can get a decent comp ratio without obstructing the flame front by using necessarily very heavy high crown pistons. It might be possible to twin plug a Triumph head on a racing bike if each side was powered independently by a double ended coil, then if only one plug shorted out, the bike would run on one cylinder and it would be obvious.
One thing which I did not try - I used to run an SR4 Lucas magneto on my Triumph with two leads to each plug , each one fired the plug alternately. It would have been possible to separate the leads and fire the two plugs in each cylinder alternately on each fourth stroke - might have induced a different swirl in the combustion chamber ? - And need hotter plugs ?
 
Tex,' Most of us with classic bikes would rather keep them back in the dark ages, rather than retrofit with the advanced stuff. For me, I'll buy a new super up to date whatever, if I want the up to date stuff.'

I agree with that sentiment, and my Seeley 850 is fast enough to win races , anyway. These days our Australian historic bikes are all cheaters which bear no resemblance to originality. What it means is that the next generation of bike lovers will never be able to get a ride on an original Manx, and discover what the really fast guys were riding in 1953. The bikes which should have been preserved will all have dissolved in modernity. For myself, a friend bought a 1961 Ex Ginger Molloy 30M which was very original, and crashed it. I once rode it at Calder - most impressive and unforgettable, and I am eternally grateful to him for that experience. I suggest to all of you young guys who get on this forum, if you can find an original short stroke manx Norton anywhere, pay the owner for a careful ride on it on a race circuit. The benchmark experience is worth the money, even if you have to insure the bike.
 
texasSlick said:
Most of us with classic bikes would rather keep them back in the dark ages, rather than retrofit with the advanced stuff. For me, I'll buy a new super up to date whatever, if I want the up to date stuff.

Indeed. Old bikes don't need all that new fangled stuff to go good.

Having said that though, comnoz on this board has done an EFI (electronic fuel injection) kit to go on a Commando, on sale from CNW.
Goes pretty well, apparently.

Not actually too difficult to do either apparently - if you know what you are doing (!!)
I've seen several quite simple versions on quite basic bikes.
Getting it calibrated to suit IS the tricky bit though, and a fair knowledge of electronics is a help.
Can buy a lot of it in kit form these days too. Still need to know what you are doing...

Also needs an utterly reliable electrical system, you won't get home with a flat battery.

There are, of course, older bikes that have been thoroughly updated.
This Velo is kicking around the traps.
Done by someone who knows what they are doing...
As 500cc singles go, still in the ballpark with modern stuff (singles).
Dyno questions
 
acotrel said:
These days our Australian historic bikes are all cheaters which bear no resemblance to originality. What it means is that the next generation of bike lovers will never be able to get a ride on an original Manx, and discover what the really fast guys were riding in 1953. .

Even in their day, folks were always modifying them to go faster. ?
Heck, in 1953 Joe Craig was experimenting with what would make the 1954 bikes faster than anyone elses...
Thats how racing works.
Stop being stuck in the past ?

And if you REALLY want a 1953 Manx, Ken McIntosh will sell you what could be a more authentic 1953 (or whatever year ) Manx than Nortons could produce in 1953.
It was said that Nortons would sell you the raw bones of a race bike, but if you wanted it to go fast, and last, it had to be stripped down, blueprinted, and assembled how it should have been done. Thats why the manx 'tuners' of the day (Joe Potts, Francis Beart, Steve Lancefield, Ray Petty etc etc) were all so successful.
And why unknown guys with unknown bikes rarely took a big race win...
 
I saw Ken McIntosh today at the NZMCRR AGM, hot topic of debate was moving the 1976 cutoff date to 1982 like the rest of the world.....
 
To go back to the very start of this thread this is what I learnt about developing a Norton 500 twin over about 5 year on a dyno.

First off unfortunately in NZ at least I have to repeat that only maybe 1 in 4 operators are any help at all when tuning our kind of bikes. And they can wreak things like clutches etc if you dont watch them.

I use the Dyno at Motomart in Lower hut NZ. It is an inertia drum type dyno but it can also be run in brake mode. That means you can do both aceleration tests and tests where you can hold the throttle against a given load and test ignition and carburation at selected rpm. In this mode it is like riding a bike up a steep hil with a steady throttle. If you have a points or electronic set up which you can move back and forth while the engine is running then you can obtain the best timing by testing improvements in rpm. With a magneto this is more difficult unless you have one with manual advance and retard (or make up a way to rotate the mag on the mounting studs).

To keep the price within reason you need to try to make a deal where you pay for dyno time but only the operator time while he is actually operating the dyno. Then he can go away and work on other things while you make the modifications for the next test.

They will expect your bike to have an electric start so make sure you or they have a big charged car battery to rotate the drum and start the bike.

You must be very efficient in the tests to minimise the costs.

I go with a large drawn up sheet of paper with the tests (or else on a spead sheet). My aim is to collect the test data for analysis latter rather than the more conventional practice of tuning the bike in real time.

I found it more eficient to collect the data - analyse it at home and then go to the dyno again with an optimised set up.

BE VERY CAREFUL THAT YOUR RECORDED RUN NOES ARE THE SAME AS THE OPERATORS OR YOU WILL BE COMPLETLY CONFUSED.

So set out your tests, carb, slides, needles, needle heights, main jets etc etc. Have all the carb parts set out on bread boards or multi compartment plastic containers.

If you want to test exhausts or inlets makeup telescopic sliding tubes so you can test header lenghts very quickly by sliding the pipes along. Dont worry about how they are mounted - just hang some sort of jig off the footpeg mounts so you can make the change in a few seconds. Bring gloves !!!! Because you are not testing the final fitted exhaust it is pretty cheap to cut and weld different and sections . For test runs I just hang the pipes anywhere that fits.

I also made up three types of megapones with reverse cones which I could cut and modify.

It is important to do all tuning using the muffler you will need to use at the track.

As has been mentioned several times the point of this exercise is not just peak power (torque) but to improve power (hence torque) in the mid rpm range.The abilty to get out of corners wins races and I made major improvements in the 4500 to 6000 rpm range mainly through header and inlet tract tuning. I will attempt to plot my before and after curves if I can get the photo plot to work.

Im a big fan of sensible use of the dyno. I had no race experience when I started but in three years I had the second fastest 500 clubmans bike in NZ. Most of the learning was due to the dyno and reading of good quality books and articles. Blair, AG Bell, Vizard, Irving, Jennings.

Ok. I got it to work. these runs are all on the same dyno. You can see I started in the low 30s bhp and ended up touching 50 with a much better range below 5000. This is all on 98 octane NZ pump petrol under NZ Clubmans rules. Last photo is Tony at Puke . You can see the header pipe set up. This is exactly the setup on the 50 bhp run. With this set up he could lap the old Puke track in the 1min 11 sec range which is not too shabby for a clubmans bike (SLS brakes etc). You can also see the run date. Jan 2009. Since then I have been banished to the former CIS to save for my retirement and all bike riding has stopped :-(

Dyno questions



Dyno questions


Dyno questions


John
 
Sense at last ! However there is a major difference in doing this in NZ - the weeds are thicker there. If you are going to survive, whatever you do, you must do it well. I think your dyno operators are not hairy arsed self professed experts. You probably have the real deal. I've found out where our local is, and I'm going to consult with him. I don't hold out much hope. However just a mid-range torque figure from my 850 at about 5000 RPM would be good.
 
acotrel said:
I've found out where our local is, and I'm going to consult with him. I don't hold out much hope.


Really? With that attitude, why bother.

johnm has very nicely spoon fed you on what to do and how to do it and it should really be independent of the "dyno operator's" prowess and technical savvy. You are the master of your own destiny in this dyno endeavor. Do the pre planning, understand the equipment, plan and prepare and collect and record good data; then act accordingly.

This starts to sound like "do I want to dip my toe in the water because it is cold". Take the plunge and learn something form it.
 
You are right, I usually stay well away from bike shops, they've probaby all hired scientists in the past 15 years, and sacked all the dills who expect you to pay for their incompetence. So I should be more optimistic. I will also buy a new Bible.
 
Dances, a few days ago a friend took his crankcases of his 350 manx to a motor builder and asked him how to remove the baked on Castrol R without losing the grey chromate coating. The guy said 'leave it with me'. My friend now has a bright shiny set of electron cases and the problem of getting them corrosion resistant again. Idiots are everywhere just waiting to dip into your wallet. IF YOU WANT A JOB DONE WELL, DO IT YOURSELF. I don''t own a dyno. Do I need to teach myself how to operate one, and hire it ?
 
Well attitude is really just a "habit of thought" and I do see a pattern here. :(

Believe what you want. :roll:

Most people would collect the information given, do some of their own research and get what they could out of the quality and quantity of dyno time available. :wink: johnm took the time to spoon feed and digest for you; there's a lot of good advice there and all I am hearing is hand wringing, pissin and moaning. Make it happen! Re-read his post, make a plan and go visit a few shops with dyno's. Maybe you will be more comfortable traveling 4-6 hours to a better dyno service provider.

Perhaps we will all reincarnate and come back into "the ideal world". :D
 
A list of the things i tested on the dyno

Carbs

slides
needles
needle jets
needle heights
main jets
float height
carb diameter
Opening up fuel feed holes in banjo fittings and bowls

100 octane Race gas versus 98 octane pump gas (no measureable difference and twice the price)

Inlet tract lenghts - this can really work but you have to go long.
Bell mouths
Different kinds of carb mounting fittings. This is very important. You can see on the dyno if the carb has bad vibration periods and improve the mounting to prevent fuel frothing and starvation on long straights.

Ignition timing - Easiest changed quickly on a mag by altering the points gap within a 3 thou range but not more.

Advancing and retarding the cam. Use a vernier to test but not for permanant racing because they cannot take the long term punishment.

Exhausts. This makes big differences
header pipe diameter
header pipe lenght
Design of muffler - big is better
lenght diameter and reverse cone of megaphones

Things I should have tested but did not

Different carbs I only tested concentrics and should also try monoblocs. GPs are expensive.
two into one exhaust
methanol - I tuned for this on the track.
Other stuff Im thinking about.

Note I didnt say anything about changing cams, CR etc. 80 % of the improvement above came from just the items I listed. Especially filling in the curve at lower rpm.

I did fit a PW 3 cam instead of a 4S and I did get some head work done. But these changes took it from 43 bhp to 47 bhp peak. All the rest was tuning. The cam and head added hp above 6250 but tuning the cam advance, headers and inlet lenghts added almost everything in the 4000 to 6000 rpm range.

The motor is not very highly specified. 1956 Dommie 500 with an 88 SS head. 10.1 :1 compression. PW3 cam. Standard bore stroke (actually 60 thou over which is allowed in our rules as it is a standard over bore), standard valve sizes, standard valve train. It is built for reliability. The guy who did the head work did a good job I think. Dont underestimate the importance of building a solid blueprinted bottom end and barrel with everything parallel and square. It is most important that the engine spins freely. If you dont start with this you are wasting your time. and spend a lot of time on the head getting valves ground in just right, springs even with no coil bind. No more spring pressure than needed (about 215 lb over the nose on a PW3 at 7500 rpm)
 
acotrel said:
how to remove the baked on Castrol R without losing the grey chromate coating. ?

Rubbing alcohol works very well for this. Petroleum solvents will not.

The chromate that is put on magnesium is a treatment with a chemical that sort of puts an oxide coating on the surface of the metal. The chemical looks and smells a lot like the acidic stop-bath chemical for developing B&W photographs, which I had to do when I was a youngster.

As for John's tuning of his Domi 88, I hope everyone took note when he said that changes to the engine parts, head and cam, were worth 5 horses, while the actual tuning of ignition, mixture and tract lengths was worth more than three times that. A good thing to keep in mind for those seeking to have cheap fun with their stock Norton street bikes, that tuning the details might be a lot better use of time and money than installing racing style parts.
 
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