Dyno questions

The trouble with a lot of this stuff is that you can paint yourself into a corner when you build your motor. The dyno work is limited in benefit by the mechanics of the engine you are developing. If it is a 'top end motor', the midrange may have been totally destroyed and the bike can be extremely difficult to ride. What can a dyno do with that ? I'm actually amazed that the long stroke commando engine is as good as it is, and I would never overport one or do anything else to destroy its torque characteristics.
 
acotrel said:
The dyno work is limited in benefit by the mechanics of the engine you are developing.

That statement makes no sense whatsoever. :roll: The above sounds like a clueless statement.

acotrel said:
If it is a 'top end motor', the midrange may have been totally destroyed and the bike can be extremely difficult to ride. What can a dyno do with that ?

Do you actually read what you type? A dyno is not a "fix it" tool but a diagnostic tool.

acotrel said:
I'm actually amazed that the long stroke commando engine is as good as it is, and I would never overport one or do anything else to destroy its torque characteristics.

Never overport? That's right up there next to stating I would never pound clay and gravel into one of the spark plug holes or do anything else to destroy its torque.
 
A stoichiometric mixture is that THEORETICAL perfect balance of air and fuel such that every carbon atom in the fuel burns to CO2, and every hydrogen atom in the fuel burns to H2O, and furthermore there is not one single oxygen molecule in the original air fuel mix left over. This is complete combustion, and extracts all the potential energy available in the fuel. Call this Emax. You simply cannot get any more energy out of the fuel...the first law of thermodynamics says in simple non-technical terms....you can't get something for nothing. The second law says worse than that....you can't break even. In the real world, you will never extract the Emax.

if we introduce a stoichiometrically perfect mixture into a cylinder, compress, and spark it, then peek into the exhaust port right behind the exhaust valve, we will find carbon monoxide, CO. This is incomplete combustion as the energy released by the reaction of carbon to CO is LESS than that of carbon burning to CO2. Therefore, if CO is present in the exhaust, the extraction of energy from the fuel is less than Emax. We will find in the exhaust port NOx's. These form by the combination of oxygen with nitrogen at the high temperatures found in the cylinder. NOx's do not contribute to the energy extracted from the fuel, they suck it off, reducing the power output. We will also find in the exhaust port, unburned or raw fuel, representing potential energy lost. Remember the first law of thermo? If we want power, we have to burn fuel...can't get something from nothing. Unburned fuel is potential power wasted. Unburned fuel results because some fuel molecules did not "meet up" with oxygen molecules in the maelstrom of combustion in the cylinder.

There will be free oxygen in the exhaust stream as well...any oxygen that did not completely react with carbon, and did not react with the unburned fuel, must be accounted for, less whatever combined with nitrogen.

Most persons on this site want power...what to do?

Richen the mixture. This introduces relatively more fuel molecules than oxygen in the cylinder, and statistically, there is a higher probability that some of these fuel molecules will meet up with the oxygen molecules that escaped in the preceeding example. Some of this fuel will burn, producing more energy that before, but alas, less than Emax. Remember the second law... can't break even nohow. Call this energy E rich. A rich mixture also has the following effects. Fuel droplets vaporizing suck up heat, cooling the cylinder and lowering the combustion temperature. Less NOx's are formed at lower temperatures, reducing the loss of energy due NOx formation. A look in the exhaust port will find higher unburned fuel, less free oxygen, lower NOx, and who knows what the CO will do, and who cares?

For completeness, let's look at the case of leaning the mixture.

By leaning the mixture, we reduce the fuel and introduce relatively more oxygen molecules than fuel molecules in the cylinder. Statistically, there is a higher probability that an oxygen molecule will find one of those fuel molecules that escaped in the stoichiometric example. Then a higher percentage, but not higher quantity, of fuel molecules will be burned relative to stoichiometric, producing a cleaner exhaust. Energy extracted from the fuel is less than Emax, or Erich, because we deliberately introduced less fuel into the cylinder. Remember the first law? Can't get more power by burning less fuel.

A stoichiometric fuel air ratio depends on the proportion of carbon and hydrogen in the fuel. Different fuel composition, such as methanol blends will change stoichiometry. It should be noted that 10% methanol will require a different stoichiometric ratio than, let's say...20%.

In this treatise, I emphacized placing the exhaust gas analyzer right behind the exhaust valve. This is because exhaust products can react in the exhaust pipe and mufflers, so what comes out of the mufflers is not necessarily what comes out of the cylinder. Unburned fuel, burning in the exhaust system, produces the "crackles" we hear.

The third law of thermodynamics states in simple non-technical terms, ... that's the way things are, you might as well get used to it.
 
The simple fact remains that max power is not derived from methanol by running it rich. As you lean it off the power increases to a max, then decreases and the combustion temperatures get too high, and become destructive. It is as difficult to get right as petrol, although if you get it wrong (too rich) the bike will still perform reasonably and that is not the case with petrol. The fastest TZ350 Yamahas on petrol were usually leaned off beyond the safe level where the black ring down on the porcelain inside the plugs , disappeared . Also bore clearances were a minimum. With a two stroke, it is usually all too hard to run it on methanol. We do it with H2 and H1 engined speedway sidecars , but they only run four 400 metre laps per race. (The ignition system is a critical component.) I have extreme doubts that you can set mid throttle-range jetting on a dyno. What I am talking about is when you slowly wind the throttle on as you come around and out of a tight corner on a road race circuit. How do you determine the optimum needle tapers when offered the Mikuni three-stage choices ? And how should the advance curve be set up for that situation ? On a TZ350 the ignition timing is considerably retarded compared with a similar road bike - that's the extreme case.
 
Obviously all the folks that tune their bikes on a dyno and win races don't know what they are doing.
Maybe you should run classes....

They still make 2 strokes in Kazakstan, don't they. ?
China too...
 
Rohan said:
Obviously all the folks that tune their bikes on a dyno and win races don't know what they are doing.
Maybe you should run classes....

They still make 2 strokes in Kazakstan, don't they. ?
China too...

Actually in Kazakhstan the bikes are either Harley Davidson cruisers and a few jap sports bikes

I wrote a long answer about dynos and tuning classic bikes based on about 7 years with the Dominator 500. But the Kazak Internet ate it !!!!

When I get a few hours I shall try again.

John
 
acotrel said:
As you lean it off the power increases to a max, then decreases and the combustion temperatures get too high, and become destructive.

Your statement above describes what texasSlick just described. He nailed it on the head. Stiochiometric balance does not mean max power, only chemical balance.
 
I spent part of my life running laboratories in an explosives factory. As I understand it the stoichiometric mixture is the composition required for an explosion which gives complete consumption of the constituents. I believe that is what happens when you get detonation (pinging) in the combustion chamber . If you get that you have gone too far in the lean direction. It is often combatted by retarding the ignition. Changing either the advance or the mixture often gives the same symptoms (response). My approach has always been to use the manufacturer's specified ignition advance for petrol and jet to it. Or with methanol (greater anti-knock), add about 4 degrees and jet to that. There are obvious advantages in programming the advance curve to suit the demand, however when you do that you are then working with three variables - jetting, advance and gearing.
I've just been reading about the Muzzy Kawasaki 750 superbike of 1993 in the latest Classic Racer. It gives an interesting insight into that situation with a normally carbureted bike. Apparently back then Muzzy had a better grip on it than most, and won the Superbike Championship. I believe that these days all modern racing bikes have computer controlled engine management systems, and even some of our historic machines sometimes surreptitiously wear them under the tank.
 
acotrel said:
As I understand it the stoichiometric mixture is the composition required for an explosion which gives complete consumption of the constituents.

Explosion doesn't come into it - its defined as the COMPLETE burning of the constituents.
In an internal combustion engine, an explosion is the enemy.
 
johnm said:
Actually in Kazakhstan the bikes are either Harley Davidson cruisers and a few jap sports bikes
I wrote a long answer about dynos and tuning classic bikes based on about 7 years with the Dominator 500. But the Kazak Internet ate it !!!!
When I get a few hours I shall try again.
John

I'm not even certain where Kazakhstan actually is, other than a broad geographic area, so good luck with that !
Mining must get in the blood...

Somewhere in that vicinity still makes 2-strokes ?
I saw it on the internet, so it must be true....
Russia maybe ? Although its all split up into component states these day.
 
Another question - when you use an oxygen meter to measure the oxygen content in exhaust gases, where does the oxygen come from which you are measuring ? I don't think it can come from combustion of organic compounds in the fuel, so is it excess air and the metee is calibrated against a previous dyno readings for that fuel, and you work backwards ?
 
I'm not even certain where Kazakhstan actually is, other than a broad geographic area, so good luck with that !
Mining must get in the blood...

Somewhere in that vicinity still makes 2-strokes ?
I saw it on the internet, so it must be true....
Russia maybe ? Although its all split up into component states these day.[/quote]


Sorry massive thread capture !!

Kazakhstan is the ninth largest country in the world. About 75 % the size of the United States (including Alaska)

It is one of the 15 countries that made up the former Soviet Union. Russia is another one of those 15 countries.

Kazakhstan is surrounded by Russia, China, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and the Caspian Sea.

It has huge mineral and oil reserves. I doubt it makes motorcycles - two stroke or otherwize , but China would be a good bet I think.

It has a stong connection these days to the US space programme. It is the place where all the flights to the Internatioanl Space station are launched. The US no longer has independant manned launch capability and all US astronauts are launched from Kazakhstan.
 
So Kazakhstan is the whole geographic area I was unsure of !!
You might be in the mining business for a while.

Azia and JSC are listed as Kazak motorcycles.
But they may be imports, and that was the importer ?

Returning to dyno tuning....
 
Had a talk to a smart mechanic about air/fuel ratios today, and the use of the oxygen sensor. Apparently many cars use a 15 to one ratio, some as rich as 14 to one, and performance cars get as rich as 13 to one. A major consideration is contamination of the catalytic converter, and air is often injected into the exhaust manifold. He commented that for max performance the air/fuel ratio would be set on the dyno at high revs to give max power, and the revs reduced with the injector controller being set to give the same air fuel ratio down through the rev range. I suggest this subject is more about controlled combustion than stoichiometry which creates the situation where detonation occurs.
 
Rohan said:
So Kazakhstan is the whole geographic area I was unsure of !!
You might be in the mining business for a while.

Azia and JSC are listed as Kazak motorcycles.
But they may be imports, and that was the importer ?

Returning to dyno tuning....

One last line. I did a search and the JSC Azia factory in Eastern Kazakhstan is now an assembly plant for several car companies, Kia, Skoda (Volkswagon) Lada and Chevrolet. No bikes mentioned. I have seen one or two Urals here but everything else is Harley and Japanese. As in most of the former Soviet countries there are more than a few millionaires and billionares about the place!!
 
They have lots of dynos in Kazakstan. And they might actually know how to use them.
 
acotrel said:
Had a talk to a smart mechanic about air/fuel ratios today, and the use of the oxygen sensor. Apparently many cars use a 15 to one ratio, some as rich as 14 to one, and performance cars get as rich as 13 to one. A major consideration is contamination of the catalytic converter, and air is often injected into the exhaust manifold. He commented that for max performance the air/fuel ratio would be set on the dyno at high revs to give max power, and the revs reduced with the injector controller being set to give the same air fuel ratio down through the rev range. I suggest this subject is more about controlled combustion than stoichiometry which creates the situation where detonation occurs.

You need to have more of a talk to him.

EFI cars use the lambda probe (O2 sensor) to monitor the exhaust conditions, and provide a RANGE of air-fuel mixtures, continuously, on the fly.
Cars can run efficiently down to as low as 24:1 air fuel mix - this gives extremely good fuel consumption, on a VERY light throttle setting.
(Where much city traffic driving is done).
Some engines can cut out a few cylinders, or more.
In 'sport' mode, the mixture is richened up, to give more power.
Simple to do in the electronics.
Plenty of bikes have at least 3 settings, on the handlebars even - one of them is a rain setting, which somewhat reduces the power.

Congratulations, you are catching up with 20th C technology...
 
Explosion in the combustion chamber is highly undesirable. That is the pinging (pinking) and as most know, is destructive.
Fuel should burn, which is a much slower process than that of an explosion.

Back to stoichiometry because I sense some still do not have a proper grasp of the concept. To state it another way, stoichiometric ratio is that theoretically perfect mixture so there is EXACTLY just enough oxygen molecules to completely combust the fuel. i.e , all the carbon in the fuel burns to CO2, and all the hydrogen to H2O, which is called complete combustion, and gets all the potential energy out of the fuel. This is the best that is theoretically possible, but in the real world is never achieved.

Someone asked where does the oxygen come from that is sensed by an oxygen analyzer....if a stoichiometric mixture was burned, and oxygen is present in the exhaust, review my post on stoichiometry above. There is free oxygen, because some carbon incompletely combusted to CO, and some fuel never burned at all. If the mixture was rich, there will still be some free oxygen, but it should be less than the stoichiometric case. If the mixture was lean, there is relatively more oxygen than fuel, and we should expect an increase in free oxygen over the stoichiometric case.

It is hard to imagine that fuel can remain unburned in the maelstrom of the combustion process in the cylinder, but this is the case. Are there any light aircraft pilots reading this thread? If so, you will bear out the following that illustrates unburned fuel must occur. The last step in pre-flight checkout is to do a left-right magneto check. Aircraft engines have 2 spark plugs per cylinder, each set fired by one of the mags. This is obviously for safety reasons, providing 2 independent ignition systems. The check out procedure is as follows: running both mags, rev the engine to about 1800 rpm, when the tach stabilizes, switch to left mag only and observe the tach. Typically, there will be 50 rpm drop. Switch back to both mags...the engine will increase rpm back to 1800. Then repeat on right mag only...again there will be an rpm drop. The significance of this is two sources of ignition combust more fuel, giving more power (as evidenced by the rpm increase). Remember the first law of thermo? That rpm boost comes from nowhere else but the combustion of MORE fuel.

Two points of ignition create two flame fronts propagating thru the air fuel charge, increasing the probability that more fuel and oxygen can react in the short time available in the cylinder. The 1800 rpm of the mag checkout procedure is pitifully slow compared to the top ends some of you guys achieve, therefore the failure to burn completely can be expected to be far worse in your engines than that in the aircraft engine.

It is my opinion, based on "guts" more than science, that high domed high compression pistons, "shade" the fuel air charge, and will exhibit more unburned fuel characteristics.

From reading these threads, I gather most of you are pursuing the dyno tests, exhaust analysis, and tweaks to air fuel ratio to wrest the last drop of power out of your engines. I know it would be an engineering headache, but you might consider modifying your cylinder heads to accept a second plug, and somehow building in a second magneto, or electronic ign. The results of the aircraft mag check procedure shows a significant increase in power is available.
 
Interesting post Texas. After reading it I located a youtube video showing the mag check procedure on some small airplane. The rpm drop with one mag was about 100, from 1700 on both to 1600 on the single mags. Allowable for that engine was a 125 rpm drop. This represents a substantial percentage of power lost with the single spark.
I have been told by a well repected Vincent engine builder that the two plug ignition in my Terry Prince heads was of no advantage. Looking at your info, I think the Vincent engine builder is wrong.

Glen
 
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