Does wet sumping cause any damage?

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highdesert said:
I do have homemade stickers reminder on the headlamp shell, and another on the handlebar in the center, that says OIL LINE!
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Came with one of my bikes:

Does wet sumping cause any damage?


Like that would help. :mrgreen:
 
Why fight the problem? The problem is the solution! Simply cut out the bottom of the motor and weld a one gallon sump onto it. Divert the oil feed to the sump and all will be well. Oh, and a side benefit is if any of the pesky frame gets in the way of the sump just cut that out too. :roll:

Mick
 
Can someone explain to me when you start your twin internal combustable engine full of oil (or at least more than it should have) how the camshaft is not getting any oil?
By the way I have a very reliable motor, I dont believe in prime kicking or one way valves and I NEVER let the rpm drop below 2500 whether idling or movin whenever possible.

cheers Im goin ridin
 
mcns said:
Can someone explain to me when you start your twin internal combustable engine full of oil (or at least more than it should have) how the camshaft is not getting any oil?
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Where did you get that the camshaft isn't getting oil?
 
I could have sworn I have read on another thread on this forum that wet sumping causes oil starvation to the bottom end on initial start-up. Maybe I just read it wrong.

carry on
 
ML said:
Why fight the problem? The problem is the solution! Simply cut out the bottom of the motor and weld a one gallon sump onto it. Divert the oil feed to the sump and all will be well. Oh, and a side benefit is if any of the pesky frame gets in the way of the sump just cut that out too.
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Hmmmmmm.....

That sounds like a pretty good idea!

The sump could run from just aft of the front crossover tube, and splay out below the engine mounts, similar to several other brands' designs.

No need to cut any frame members, either; just keep the width narrow enough to fit between the frame tubes.

Maybe a perimiter-bolted bottom cover and integral fitment of a modified sump screen body that could affix the sump to the engine with it's heavy thread.

With careful design, you could even retain the centerstand; although it wouldn't work with 2-into-1 headers (sorry, Jean).

Time to burn some midnight oil on AutoCAD...
 
mcns said:
I could have sworn I have read on another thread on this forum that wet sumping causes oil starvation to the bottom end on initial start-up. Maybe I just read it wrong.
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Theoretically at least, the camshaft shouldn't be starved of oil,-even if the contents of the oil tank has been allowed to drain to the sump, as that excess sump oil should be thrown everywhere by the crankshaft on start-up.

What is most likely to suffer are the big ends, as they rely on the pressure-fed oil, unlike the camshaft and other bottom end parts which only rely on "splash" lubrication.
If the tank has drained to the level of the feed outlet and air has entered the feed pipework then it will be several vital seconds before the scavenged oil that is pumped back to the tank will get back down to the feed side of the pump, and the fact that the Norton crankshaft sludge trap is quite large and therefore contains a reasonable amount of oil probably helps to save the big ends from oil starvation when the feed side is full of air?

Also note that feed outlet isn't at the very bottom of the oil tank, so even though there may be 'some' oil in the tank, that does not necessarily mean air won't have managed to enter the feed system.

If the majority of the gauze feed strainer can be seen through the oil filler opening, then it is likely that air has been drawn into the feed pipe.
 
I have a question regarding the wet sumping issue. A number responses to this post mention the issue regarding the oil pump and assuming it is good. How does one know if the wet sumping is being caused by a bad pump?? My "74 850 seems to drain oil a bit too fast for my liking, and I am concerned about the pump. Not crazy about tearing the engine out and splitting the cases to determine the pump is ok.. How can I test it? Other suggestions about why it seems to occur? Thanks for the comments..
 
Cheesehead Commando said:
I have a question regarding the wet sumping issue. A number responses to this post mention the issue regarding the oil pump and assuming it is good. How does one know if the wet sumping is being caused by a bad pump?? My "74 850 seems to drain oil a bit too fast for my liking, and I am concerned about the pump. Not crazy about tearing the engine out and splitting the cases to determine the pump is ok.. How can I test it? Other suggestions about why it seems to occur? Thanks for the comments..
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No need to split cases to get to pump.
 
This begs the question - WHY ARE NORTON OIL PUMPS SO BLOODY EXPENSIVE?
 
grandpaul said:
This begs the question - WHY ARE NORTON OIL PUMPS SO BLOODY EXPENSIVE?
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Because they are dual pumpers, both internal and external. :D
 
I don't know WHY Norton Oil Pumps are so spendy. I'd imagine it's economies of volume. Not much demand for them. They are certainly easy enough to make.
I also am not in favor of an inline valve. Mine will wet sump if left for much over a week. I alwyas just check the oil tank before leaving though anyway. So, it's not that big a deal for me.
All the specialty stuff...People will do what they want to make a bike theirs. They will use what ever products they see fit to make their riding experience what they want it to be. That's how it should be.
People that ignore those that have been there/ done that...well, what can ya say?
Things could be worse. We could all be riding H*nda's, Then what would we have to gripe about?
 
Seems to me an industrious fellow could earn a tidy income just making Norton oil pumps and selling them on the open market.

Tooling and reverse engineering costs cuold be recouped pretty quickly (my guess). The raw materials certainly don't give any indication of current finished product cost.
 
grandpaul said:
Seems to me an industrious fellow could earn a tidy income just making Norton oil pumps and selling them on the open market.

Tooling and reverse engineering costs cuold be recouped pretty quickly (my guess). The raw materials certainly don't give any indication of current finished product cost.
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Seems like it wouldn't be much of a leap for someone like Morgo, who's already making replacement pumps for Triumphs.
 
Re:

tuono said:
Some Commandos must weigh about 600lbs with all the unnecessary junk on them that the 'specialists' say you need!
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Like what?
 
sidreilley said:
grandpaul said:
Seems to me an industrious fellow could earn a tidy income just making Norton oil pumps and selling them on the open market.

Tooling and reverse engineering costs cuold be recouped pretty quickly (my guess). The raw materials certainly don't give any indication of current finished product cost.
Click to expand...


Seems like it wouldn't be much of a leap for someone like Morgo, who's already making replacement pumps for Triumphs.
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From what I can gather, Morgo has passed on making Norton pumps as they are already gear-based unlike the plunger-types in the Triumphs and BSAs. With the trillions of words written about the Norton wetsumping you would think by now we'd have a definitive solutions aside from sticking a valve in the oil line.
 
I thought someone had already posted a link to an aftermarket oil pump in the last few weeks??? I remember looking it up, but it was expensive
 
grandpaul said:
ML said:
Why fight the problem? The problem is the solution! Simply cut out the bottom of the motor and weld a one gallon sump onto it. Divert the oil feed to the sump and all will be well. Oh, and a side benefit is if any of the pesky frame gets in the way of the sump just cut that out too.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a pretty good idea!
The sump could run from just aft of the front crossover tube, and splay out below the engine mounts, similar to several other brands' designs.
No need to cut any frame members, either; just keep the width narrow enough to fit between the frame tubes.
Maybe a perimiter-bolted bottom cover and integral fitment of a modified sump screen body that could affix the sump to the engine with it's heavy thread.
With careful design, you could even retain the centerstand; although it wouldn't work with 2-into-1 headers (sorry, Jean).

Time to burn some midnight oil on AutoCAD...
Click to expand...

But it does work if you put the oil tank behind the transmission :wink:

Now take a look at the racer Jim Comstock built, the oil tank is below the engine.
Does wet sumping cause any damage?

This Old Velocette also has the oil tank below the engine and as an added benefit, out in the air flow.
Does wet sumping cause any damage?


Jean
 
Good spotting Ludwig all I saw was the timing gears when I read the thread.
 
RennieK said:
Good spotting Ludwig all I saw was the timing gears when I read the thread.
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Who's going to bug Jim to tell us more about his oil pump? :mrgreen:
 
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