Commonest Commandos Crappolaness

Call THAT an Oil Leak ? Not sure they know what a Oil Leak IS , these days . :?



Edwin King " You want me to clean this thing " s Thunderbolt is unlikely to rust in a hurry .

For me the totally wrong-headed exhaust to head fixing on 850s.

Barely fit for purpose on the 750, but to shorten the available thread to get the collets in.... :roll:

While I'm ranting, The inadequate support for the mainshaft resulting in failed layshaft bearings (just plain dangerous!) and prematurely worn gear teeth.
+1 on the nasty bullet connectors with in-built moisture traps, but that isn't a feature unique to Commandos. To elaborate - anything with Joe Lucas' name on it!
I think the Fibreglass tank issue isn't really Norton's fault, just an unfortunate legacy in a modern 'eco friendly' world. Still crap though!

Need to start another thread regarding the positives, but it'll have to wait

B+Bogus said:

For me the totally wrong-headed exhaust to head fixing on 850s.

Barely fit for purpose on the 750, but to shorten the available thread to get the collets in.... :roll:

While I'm ranting, The inadequate support for the mainshaft resulting in failed layshaft bearings (just plain dangerous!) and prematurely worn gear teeth.
+1 on the nasty bullet connectors with in-built moisture traps, but that isn't a feature unique to Commandos. To elaborate - anything with Joe Lucas' name on it!
I think the Fibreglass tank issue isn't really Norton's fault, just an unfortunate legacy in a modern 'eco friendly' world. Still crap though!

Need to start another thread regarding the positives, but it'll have to wait

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Amen on the 850 exhaust nuts.

Lucas-Amal in that order

I think the 73'-74' Commandos were the best years for them, they had got rid of the glass bodywork and had the engine mains sorted, but everything on the bikes still fell apart in a short time compared to a Honda, especially when they were run really hard like they were before they became collectible.

From front to back, fork seals, turn signals and switches, condensers, points, auto advance, isolastics, cheap carbs stripping out and falling apart, ignition switch, engine breather system, exhaust pipes cracking in crossover area, mufflers rotting out, muffler rubber mounts falling apart, sleeve gear bearing, swingarm pivot, rear wheel bearing, dumb integrated sprocket-rear brake drum, rear stainless fender cracking, wearing out skinny rear tire from wheelspin. In the years I rode my 850 I had to have the entire bike apart and back together just to keep it rideable. The best part of the 850 is the engine, which with smart maintenance and a Boyer ignition was the most reliable part of the bike, the rest was shit.

The bike really needs an hour maintenance for every two you ride it if it is as supplied from the factory. If all the above are swapped out for modern fixes or replacements off Jap bikes then things could get a lot better for you. It is an old engine design that was stretched too far in a poor chassis design that wears out quickly and becomes a flexi-flyer.

I think it is only because of the name and logo on the fuel tank, which was made famous by real Norton motorcycles in the OHC and featherbed years, that the Commando became as much a collector's item as it has, it rode the coat-tails of it's predecessor's to where it is now.

I've never been much of a road rider however I once rode a CB750 Honda when they were new, - definitely not impressed. It had heavy unpleasant steering. I always liked Triumph 650 twins, and the Norton Manxman was to die for. I know I should have progressed to Japanese two strokes when I raced regularly. I built that methanol fuelled T250 Suzuki, blisteringly fast however I never loved it. The Japanese bikes had no soul. My Seeley 850 is the best bike I've ever owned and I love it dearly despite its hazardous motor. I still shudder to think what that crankshaft is doing when the motor is revving hard . I think a close to standard commando would be really great for around where I live, however I wouldn't ride one the 220Km to Melbourne down the Hume Highway. I'd probably have brain fade in the first 30 minutes.
I suggest Commandos should be appreciated for what they are - anachronisms which represent the ultimate in development of an old design philosophy. I don't know what the 961 means to motorcycling yet.

Beng,
'
I think it is only because of the name and logo on the fuel tank, which was made famous by real Norton motorcycles in the OHC and featherbed years, that the Commando became as much a collector's item as it has, it rode the coat-tails of it's predecessor's to where it is now.'

I had a similar opinion of the commandos in the 70s. I thought the young guys only bought them because their fathers had said 'Nortons are good bikes'. Accordingly I built the Seeley 850 in about 1979, and never raced it until 2002 simply because I never believed in it, especially after I had looked inside the motor. Then I actually raced it and I was amazed at just how good it is - it stuffs all the theories about short stroke, super hot cams, big ports and high compression. The only problem I've had has been in harnessing the torque, it has always needed the 6 speed CR gearbox to get sense out of the motor. The standard gearbox is useless for racing, the 4 speed CR box is great once you get the bike mobile with the extremely high first gear, I haven't tried the 6 speeder yet but the clutch starts should become really exciting.

I have only one criticism to make about the standard commando and it has to do with the narrow mount for the swing arm. If I owned one, I'd find a way to pick up the ends of the pivot, and fit a silentbloc bush to each end, then change the swing arm so the bearings are as wide apart as possible. Peter Williams built a racer with the swing arm bearings immediately beside the engine plates, to get the bike narrower - he should have known better, he rejected the design after trying it. If you fit bronze bushes instead of silentblocs to a manx swing arm, you can feel the difference in the handling - our A graders used to do that in the old days. The slightest bit of slack in the pivot bearings, or flex in the mounts, stuffs the handling. The mod I suggest would mean the motor/gearbox assembly would only be able to vibrate in one direction (up and down rotating around the pivot), however I think it would be worth it.

In the last while I have met two Commando owners who have exceeded 100,000 miles on their Commandos. Both purchased the bikes when new and did all of their own maintenance. One bike has done 125,000 miles, it belongs to Ronald Brown, the fellow who did the foundry work on the Terry Prince Vincent heads. He allowed that he has done a fair bit of mechanical work on the bike in order to cover that distance.
The other belongs to a new member of our Vincent club here in Vancouver. That bike has just over 100,000 miles on it and, according to reports, has been very reliable with very little mechanical work needed. I havent had a chance to talk with the owner about the bike just yet. It would be nice to know how he made it that far down the road.
On that note, I had the Vincent all packed and ready for a thousand mile jaunt this weekend, but it started to misfire when tested last night. It looks like a fried condensor (converted Commando points) but I am leaving shortly, so no time to chase the problem.
Put some soft bags on the Commando and off we go in the rain.

Glen

Once I got my Combat engine sorted out from ingesting the stelite tips off the cam followers its been very dependable. Biggest problem I've had is carbs...slides sticking, floats sticking, bolts falling out. I've got four bikes. Right now my BSA R3 has a slipping clutch, T160 has a top end oil leak and an XLCR with a wienered primary chain tensioner. The Norton is the most reliable unit I own. Never thought I'd say that.

I still have faith that nearly all faults are fixable and upgradable.
I am running a single Amal MkII carb, boyer ignition, FIAM horns. I have a stash of spare parts and lots of Loctite.

KIdney belt ?

acotrel said:

I have only one criticism to make about the standard commando and it has to do with the narrow mount for the swing arm.

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The swingarm pivots are already 7" apart, how wide do you want them ???
Bronze bushes are easy to change (relatively), the oiling system to keep em lubed could have been improved, as could the pivot pin.
Those silentbloc rubber pivots are pigs to do anything with once they wear out, naaa don't want them near a Commando.
A more heavily braced Commando swingarm could have been an improvement, swingarm flex is a silent and unseen demon in the handling dept ?

worntorn said:

In the last while I have met two Commando owners who have exceeded 100,000 miles on their Commandos. Both purchased the bikes when new and did all of their own maintenance. One bike has done 125,000 miles, it belongs to Ronald Brown, the fellow who did the foundry work on the Terry Prince Vincent heads. He allowed that he has done a fair bit of mechanical work on the bike in order to cover that distance. Glen

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Ahem, you previously said his name is Rodney ?

beng said:

I think it is only because of the name and logo on the fuel tank, which was made famous by real Norton motorcycles in the OHC and featherbed years, that the Commando became as much a collector's item as it has, it rode the coat-tails of it's predecessor's to where it is now.

Click to expand...

The 650 and SS didn't sell well, because of its cafe racer orientation ?
And it didn't distinguish itself enough from the Bonneville ?
They (eventually) sold more P11s hybrids etc than 650's....

The Commando was sold as a more all-round motorcycle ?
No co-incidence it won 'motorcycle of the year' 5 times on the trot was it ?, in the UK....
Those John Player race bikes did the Commando racing advertising bit, no drawing on old manxes and their race 'wins' (although manx wins were scarce even going into the 1950s, let alone 1960s it must be said).
??

Mk3 ground clearance is the worst crap thing by far.
Left is the side stand bracket and the other side the header.
Kills the fun just as it's begining.
graeme

Actually, the JPNs Commandos did very well on the British short tracks in addition to the 73 TT win.

The Commandos did have a pretty strong primary with the triplex chain.



Crappolaness continued: the necessity of regular removal and cleaning of the clutch plates

....the financial decision to not sell Commandos with readily adjustable threaded Isolastics, resulting in many bikes going literally decades if not forever with never reshimmed isos, accelerating the likely hood of the Weave

and most Crappyness of all perhaps, the shockingly low bearing life of as little as 5000 miles on the
19 tooth crank whipping "Ill Fated Combats", a warranty nightmare for the factory

Its THE PIN , Mounting .

" The swingarm pivots are already 7" apart, how wide do you want them ??? " Rohan .

ABOUT THE SAME AS A FEATHERBED . The Pin Secured at the ENDS . Securely .
though a degree of lateral movement at the axle accomadates bumps , leant over . according to the Moto G P tecnocrats .

Other than that .
THE RIDER , preventitive maintanance ( indulgance :wink: ) and delicate sensitivities , rather than size 12 clodhoppers & brute force .
Had to exit a rider on mine , as his grauches on every shift were disturbing .

Correct Operation , one built Tuesday - Thursday , and serviced to schedule . If fitted with a decent aircleaner & oil filter should give reliable service .

Redlineing the car regularly , scrapeing the door handles cornering , and getting airborne occasionally , 7 it might not see it through to retirement , too .
Overall Commandos have a high survival rate ( nincompoops broke then parked them :lol: ) where hondas went to the crushers , or had Rickman Frames .
Whats suitable for the masses isnt necessarilly ' Top Line ' . Or theyred be 1970 Maserati Ghiblis everywhere . Which would be o.k. by me . 8)

There's a saying in Dixie, if they weren't so cute there'd be a bounty on them.



Self dissolving Kick starter splines and side stand pivot, ugh just by thermal changes alone notwithstanding actual use even with just step on easy starts, which at least they all should do all the time.

The 2 Combats I got both have bad habit of leaking brake fluid out the master cylinder but not on any tests I could do only after setting up and gets hot in garage. Thought I had it stopped as ok last couple seasons, but hey one thing this subject should highlight is how temporary to almost mythical a Fully Fettered Commando is., No one believes the oddometer mileage, that knows how long they work for a while.

Nothing has ever fallen off including thyself. Never left me stranded. Started 2nd kick after languishing for a year due to my new BMW super cruiser. After a roaring ride she is definitely a hooligan machine. I gave her a new rear tire, an oil shut off ball valve, and a polishing. I would say the most daunting thing is the Amal carbs. However, despite the fact that idle is somewhat erratic, she has always pulled like a locomotive and has never sputtered or missed while underway. She has backfired and scared me a couple of times but both those occasions were the Boyer wire fixes that have to be made. First the loose connectors and then the attachment to the circuit board. From then on smooth riding. Less vibration than the BMW and still on old isolastics that I will probably never change. Norton is a truly great machine but I will never ride one from coast to coast again. Well, maybe if I can find one of those Vetter fairings like on the Interpol. Not likely though.

I don't believe the poor sales of Norton 650 and SS had much to do with cafe racer styling . In fact the dominators of the 50s, and up to the Atlas were very conservative . Triumph 650s had the sporty image, however I believe they were also substantially cheaper.
Rohan, about the commando swing arm setup. Compare the pre-unit Triumph with the post 1962 unit models. The latter actually handled very well. The pre-unit models used to twist the engine plates and the seat tube when the swing arm was loaded. We tried modifying them to stop that, but failed to ever succeed. The unit models have plates which secure the ends of the swing arm mount to the rear frame tubes to stop the flex. The rider feels the slightest frame twist if the rear wheel is able to move sideways. There is no w ay a commando can feel other than vague while the swing arm is mounted as is on the standard machines. I would actually expect t he high speed weave to happen with that setup. It needs the ends of the swing arm spindle secured at their extremities. And that means suffering a bit more vibration from the drive line. I suggest that for good handling it is essential the steering head is soundly linked to ends of the swing arm spindle with as little flex as possible. If the motor and gearbox then jump up and down around the spindle, it doesn't matter. With the commando setup the engine plates must flex under load.

Ah aceotrel, your are one of the ones I want to change their correct mental impression of Commando Crapola-ness in power turn handling > inside out like it has mine. Peel's boxed swingarm allows swash plate back ups about mid way out its arms and as a greaser for no drip low to no maintenance. The Cdo power draining paper weight crappy "bee under a bonnet" hidden horn sound will be upgraded to a noise maker that'll make deer jump out of their skins freaking out escaping before I get there.

The lack stereo, cig lighers and drink holders and serious lockable luggage capacity to enjoy on daily commutes and errands needs some attending to too. On that note there's a gallon of Kickapoo-Joy Juice I need to retrieve that requires negotiating a rocky knobbed driveway that would take out my car's oil or tranny pan high centering, so working up nerve not to spill a drop of blood or paint before the sun gets too hot to enjoy the breeze.