Commando weave

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MexicoMike said:
Frankly, I'll say (again) what I firmly believe: Most 'upgrades' for (street-ridden) Norton Commandos...aren't!
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Yeah, modern compound tires, EI, improved suspension, brake mods, lighter clutches, stronger gearboxes, belt drives, featherlite cables, LED bulbs, electric starts. They’re all bollox right... I mean, it’s not like the industry has moved on in the last 50 years is it... :rolleyes:

Also, I believe the Norton that was weaving like a basket maker in that video, had stock wheels, tires, shocks, etc...
 
I would still like to hear from anyone who has tried the Continental radials on their Commando. After wasting money on the Michelins, only to end up giving them away to a mate with a Beemer, I'm reluctant to splash out on a pair.
 
i recall one of our engineering prof's going through an analytic review which conclude that motorcycles all weave... and at the limit the weave is so tiny as to be undectable but it's still there... therefore motorcycle are inherently unstable and therefore a death trap.... his words, or something to that effect, may he rest in peace
 
Personally I’d really like to know if anyone pursued this and got to the bottom of the actual route causes.

Generally speaking most motorcycles today do not weave. So whatever was causing it then has certainly been irradiated on new motorcycles. It’s also been irradiated on the vast majority of old motorcycles too I would imagine?
 
I don't see wide tires causing the weaving problems due to too much squirm.
If this was a problem, modern Sportbikes would be in deep trouble.
I had some dire warnings about building an Egli with monoshock and big rubber. Its fitted with a 120 front and 180 rear on 17" GSXR 750 rims
It did worry me quite a bit while building it, but the bike has turned out to be a great handler.
I've had it to 127 mph in 3rd, it was planted. Did not have enough road or nerve to try 4th top let alone 5th.
It does have a hydraulic steering damper, that could be helping. Might fit one to the big tire Norton project as well.

 
baz said:
The weave on my commando was a bit more gentle than those in the video but shifting weight forward made no difference on my bike although it did feel a little bit more planted when the tank (fastback) was full
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A full gas tank really helps make a difference.
 
Fast Eddie said:
Yeah, modern compound tires, EI, improved suspension, brake mods, lighter clutches, stronger gearboxes, belt drives, featherlite cables, LED bulbs, electric starts. They’re all bollox right... I mean, it’s not like the industry has moved on in the last 50 years is it... :rolleyes:

Also, I believe the Norton that was weaving like a basket maker in that video, had stock wheels, tires, shocks, etc...
Click to expand...
Most of that stuff added to a 1940's technology machine doesn't improve anything except in the mind of the buyer/seller. I agree with improved brakes. The rest? I can agree that some of it reduces maintenance, like EI. But EI does NOT improve performance. In fact, most of the EI systems reduce performance over the OEM system. Lighter clutches? That's a function of proper OEM clutch setup. I have stock cables and the clutch effort is an easy two-finger deal. Stronger gearbox? Well, If you increase the power, you may need a stronger gearbox but why futz with that? Buy a more powerful bike if you need more power. Makes no sense to take some old machine and try to make it produce a bunch of HP it cannot handle.

Yes, if the intent is to try to make a Norton Commando competitive with a modern 400cc sport bike, you are going to have to make a bunch of mods that will increase power and turn it into a temperamental, unreliable PITA. If that's the goal, fine but I just don't see it. I want a bike I can get on and ride and basically pay no attention to it other than routine maintenance.

It seems to me from years on this site that most problems are related to aftermarket "upgrades."

The only change to the original system that I think is really important/required for riding in 2020 is improved brakes.
OH...and maybe E-start! :)
 
MexicoMike said:
Most of that stuff added to a 1940's technology machine doesn't improve anything except in the mind of the buyer/seller.
Click to expand...
My bike rides better, handles better, stops better, idles better, vibrates less, and starts easier than it did the day I rode it from the dealer's lot. I'm also not afraid to ride it at night like I was then. Is all of this placebo effect?
 
40 mm of yoke offset might make things much more critical. I would not ride without a steering damper. My Seeley has 53 mm of yoke offset and the steering is extremely quick and direct. The first Commandos had 2.25 inch yoke offset and crashed a few guys. But that would have been what Peter Williams raced the Commandos in the production class with. - 56 mm offset ?
 
MexicoMike said:
Most of that stuff added to a 1940's technology machine doesn't improve anything except in the mind of the buyer/seller. I agree with improved brakes. The rest? I can agree that some of it reduces maintenance, like EI. But EI does NOT improve performance. In fact, most of the EI systems reduce performance over the OEM system. Lighter clutches? That's a function of proper OEM clutch setup. I have stock cables and the clutch effort is an easy two-finger deal. Stronger gearbox? Well, If you increase the power, you may need a stronger gearbox but why futz with that? Buy a more powerful bike if you need more power. Makes no sense to take some old machine and try to make it produce a bunch of HP it cannot handle.

Yes, if the intent is to try to make a Norton Commando competitive with a modern 400cc sport bike, you are going to have to make a bunch of mods that will increase power and turn it into a temperamental, unreliable PITA. If that's the goal, fine but I just don't see it. I want a bike I can get on and ride and basically pay no attention to it other than routine maintenance.

It seems to me from years on this site that most problems are related to aftermarket "upgrades."

The only change to the original system that I think is really important/required for riding in 2020 is improved brakes.
OH...and maybe E-start! :)
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Well we’ll just have to agree to disagree Mike.

I did not limit my list to ‘Performance’ mods. And therefore 101% stand by the claim that EI is a brilliant upgrade. Yes, I know points work fine, for a while. I also know that the vast majority of points equipped vehicles do more miles slightly out of tune than they do with perfectly tuned new points. And the hours that points and condenser related problems consumed in my youth are something I do not miss. I find the argument that EI is a downgrade quite remarkable.

Lighter clutch...? I meant weight Mike. The stock clutch pack puts a LOT of weight on the gearbox main-shaft. A belt and clutch with lighter plates is around 10lbs lighter. Much kinder on that over stressed gearbox.

As I said, these bikes are over 50 years old, even when they were new they were already old hat, and built to a price. The idea that they cannot be improved in terms of performance, handling, comfort, practicality, reliability, maintainability and even safety is something I do not agree with.

Anyway, I think it’s impossible to avoid upgrades with things like tyres, even Road Runners and TT100s are made out of modern compounds today, which is probably why most folks bikes don’t weave...
 
I bought a Commando back in the day when they made them...a '71. Drum brakes(!), etc. Never had a minute's problem with the bike and embarrassed a lot of "modern" 4 cylinder machines on the track. At the time I was an amateur road racer working to become a professional (which never happened) :(. Back then we rode/drove our machines to the track and rode/drove back home. My Commando was my weekend racer and my daily back/forth to work machine. All these "problems" with Commandos that people seem to have nowadays, didn't exist back when we actually rode these machines every day.
 
I was a tad too young to by a new Commando in ‘71!

Whilst not disputing your good fortune, I’ve read plenty of differing accounts...
 
I suspect the floppy early swing arm caused a lot of handling problems and weaving.
So did Norton, they kept beefing it up.
The final version on the MK3 makes the early ones look pretty wimpy. It must have cost a fair bit more to build, but it is a sturdy design. Mr. Kegler recognized the weakness as well and set about improving the wimpy swing arm on the older bikes.
Yet another upgrade that is an upgrade. Kegler clamps.

Glen
 
MexicoMike said:
I bought a Commando back in the day when they made them...a '71. Drum brakes(!), etc. Never had a minute's problem with the bike ... these "problems" with Commandos that people seem to have nowadays, didn't exist back when we actually rode these machines every day.
Click to expand...
Early Commandos had slit skirt pistons that disintegrated.
Head gaskets without flame rings that blew out.
Excessive oil consumption because no seal on intake guides.
Welded, instead of brazed exhausts that cracked.
Gearbox failure because of heavy clutch and no cush drive.
Cracking kickstart pawls, disintegrating layshaft bearings,
Breaking headsteady plates, rattled out exhaust threads, ...

And YOU never had a problem?
Lucky man!

I won't even mention the widow maker frame..
 
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As you said, we can agree to disagree! :) I personally have installed quite a few 'upgrades' to my Commando so I can't say I haven't done it. But, other than brakes, I do believe that a Commando that is put into OEM spec condition will generally not be improved performance-wise by "upgrades" though they may require less maintenance.

And no, I owned my '71 Commando for 7 years, raced it nearly every weekend, rode it to work nearly every day in Memphis, TN and had no issues at all with it - performing normal maintenance which, admittedly was far more often than what people accept nowadays.
 
Not knocking your choices at all Mike. To each his own etc. I just come at the topic from a slightly different angle I guess.

Personally, I like a few upgrades here n there... still work in progress... :rolleyes:

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I apologize - I got a bit carried away! :( I have done plenty of mods myself...my Fastback didn't leave the factory with the Alton Estart, the swingarm clamps, the Brembo master cylinder, SS brake lines, the CNW rear sets, the TriSpark, the Smiths electronic gauges, the Amal Premiers, the CNW 520 Xring chain, etc. Heck, it didn't come out of the factory as a Fastback either! :)

Covid is making me more of a curmudgeon than usual (as I've been advised by someone right here in the house)! ;)
 
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