Commando Survey

marshg246 said:
Thank you - all clear now.

I'm really starting to wonder about the drive side numbers like 00127. My guess is a batch number but so far I haven't seen too alike.

300107 has no number on the timing side and 00100 on the drive side.
304987 has no number on the timing side and 00109 on the drive side.
306028 has no number on the timing side and 00116 on the drive side.
312097 has 850F005218 on the timing side and 00122 on the drive side.
312547 has 850F107291 on the timing side and 00126 on the drive side.
318299 has 850F109123 on the timing side and 00127 on the drive side.
Click to expand...
Perhaps it means something but I have just checked my 8/74 Mk11 319265 850F111966 on the timing side but nothing on the drive side. The frame has tubes in imperial sizes. Not metric.
 
I have held the belief for some time that the 5-digit number is probably a Verlicchi batch number.

Many years ago Les Emery of Norvil informed me that the frames with the F1etc. numbers are the Italian Verlicchi frames, however, as it has subsequently been discovered, the F1 number is also found on frames made from Imperial tubing so either Les Emery's information is incorrect/inaccurate or Verlicchi also made some Imperial tube frames.
A third possibility is a metric Verlicchi frame that had been rectified by Reynolds using Imperial tube.

A metric frame spine tube is likely to be 60mm O/D and 2-1/4" (57.15mm) if Imperial.
 
Allowing for paint thickness this looks like it wants to be 2 1/4 diameter.
 

Attachments

  • Commando Survey
    20230524_214458.jpg
    167.4 KB · Views: 38
concours said:
All, having worked in the metal trade all my adult life, NOMINAL dimension are the rule.
Variation in mill runs of tubing is perfectly normal.
Click to expand...
I bow to superior knowledge. 😁

I can say however it is most certainly not 60 mm.
 
johnm said:
I bow to superior knowledge. 😁

I can say however it is most certainly not 60 mm.
Click to expand...
johnm said:
I bow to superior knowledge. 😁

I can say however it is most certainly not 60 mm.
Click to expand...
And, adding to the variation is purchasing availability. It varies, even 50 years ago, for a multitude of reasons.

These old bikes are not bastardly mutts, nor are they pedigreed material aircraft.
Just mass produced "stuff".
 
johnm said:
Perhaps it means something but I have just checked my 8/74 Mk11 319265 850F111966 on the timing side but nothing on the drive side. The frame has tubes in imperial sizes. Not metric.
Click to expand...
I'm sure it means something, just don't know what. It's rare to have a number there - of the 238 850s I have in the survey, only 6 have been reported as having the number. It's possible there are more - it's difficult to get full info and I wasn't asking people for that when I started.
 
marshg246 said:
I'm sure it means something, just don't know what. It's rare to have a number there - of the 238 850s I have in the survey, only 6 have been reported as having the number. It's possible there are more - it's difficult to get full info and I wasn't asking people for that when I started.
Click to expand...

I don't exactly agree that it's a rare stamp (especially if it is a batch number so stamped on all Verlicchi? frames) due to the number of times it has been mentioned and if the information wasn't requested then it probably wouldn't have been given and could go unnoticed by owners if covered by paint (or the certification plate?) as it's not a number used for registration purposes.

Reynolds frames can also have what appears to be a month/year date stamp (and 'R' for Reynolds?) on the L/H frame gusset plate which I also expect often goes unnoticed as the Z-plate must be removed to see it.

Frame Number Riddle

Hi there all! My 750 frame confuses me. Stamped on the headstock is B131541. Nothing I have read mentions a B in the frame number. The number relates to 1969 models. My local Norton Workshop had one look at it and said 1972. On the gussetting is a stamp R2 72, is this relevant? The motor and...
www.accessnorton.com www.accessnorton.com

1971 SS frame: strange numbers stamped on

First time i have found these numbers stamped here on a frame; left side rear the Z plate. What they mean? Thanks. Piero
www.accessnorton.com www.accessnorton.com
 
L.A.B. said:
I don't exactly agree that it's a rare stamp (especially if it is a batch number so stamped on all Verlicchi? frames) due to the number of times it has been mentioned and if the information wasn't requested then it probably wouldn't have been given and could go unnoticed by owners if covered by paint (or the certification plate?) as it's not a number used for registration purposes.

Reynolds frames can also have what appears to be a month/year date stamp (and 'R' for Reynolds?) on the L/H frame gusset plate which I also expect often goes unnoticed as the Z-plate must be removed to see it.

Frame Number Riddle

Hi there all! My 750 frame confuses me. Stamped on the headstock is B131541. Nothing I have read mentions a B in the frame number. The number relates to 1969 models. My local Norton Workshop had one look at it and said 1972. On the gussetting is a stamp R2 72, is this relevant? The motor and...
www.accessnorton.com www.accessnorton.com

1971 SS frame: strange numbers stamped on

First time i have found these numbers stamped here on a frame; left side rear the Z plate. What they mean? Thanks. Piero
www.accessnorton.com www.accessnorton.com
Click to expand...
I didn't start out asking about the 001xx number - but did start about two years ago, and many have verified that it does not exist - wish I had maked them!

This is left-field, I know. There is a theory that Renolds continued producing some frames and the frame number was on the drive side. Since the early 850s had no number on the timing side but some of those frames did have the 001xx numbers, maybe they were Renolds batches? Hopefully, I will get full info on enough bikes near the ones with the 001xx numbers to know if they are batch numbers or not.

BTW, I've never found a certification label covering a 001xx number. If someone has, I hope I get info on it.
 
Last edited:
marshg246 said:
Many of you know that I've been gathering info on Commandos for quite a while and publishing it on my web site, see: https://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/Norton/CommandoSurvey.aspx

I'm trying to figure out several things. In theory, all 850s had a frame number stamped into the timing side of the headstock (not talking about the Red Certification Label). I have enough info now to be somewhat sure the early 850s did not have that number. The first one I have with the frame number is 306124 and the last I have verified to not that the number is 306028. I'm interested in all Commandos but right now I really want more between those two bikes.

Also, starting in May 75, the MK3s had a frame number that matched the rest of the bike. The first I have that matches is 332473 and the last that doesn't is 332351. Any between those two would help as well.

There could be bikes outside the ranges that dispute either of my assumptions. One reason is that it appears that when a bike failed test it could be long time before being fixed and dispatched.

I do not include any info that ties the bike to the owner and I don't even keep a record of the owner.
Click to expand...
Hi Greg, I have 314265 with frame number F100978
 
Flakedriver said:
Hi Greg, I have 314265 with frame number F100978
Click to expand...
If that's the original frame, please double-check the number. It's way too low for the engine number. Also, what is the date on the red certification label and are there any numbers on the drive side of the headstock (001xx)?
 
marshg246 said:
There is a theory that Renolds continued producing some frames and the frame number was on the drive side.
Click to expand...

Not a theory as Ken Sprayson (of Reynolds) mentions it in his book. No late* frame numbers were stamped on the drive side (Reynolds or Verlicchi) as far as I'm aware.
*(1968-'69 were until the introduction of the certification plate in early '69)
marshg246 said:
Since the early 850s had no number on the timing side but some of those frames did have the 001xx numbers, maybe they were Renolds batches?
Click to expand...

More likely to be Verlicchi than Reynolds in my opinion as the number continues into 1975/850Mk3. The agreement was that Reynolds would only continue supplying frames (100 per week) until the stocks of tubing had been used up (according to Ken Sprayson) after Norton suddenly cut them dead with no further orders for frames as they were buying the frames (£3.00) cheaper from Verlicchi.
 
Last edited:
L.A.B. said:
Not a theory as Ken Sprayson (of Reynolds) mentions it in his book. No late* frame numbers were stamped on the drive side (Reynolds or Verlicchi) as far as I'm aware.
*(1968-'69 were until the introduction of the certification plate in early '69)


More likely to be Verlicchi than Reynolds in my opinion as the number continues into 1975/850Mk3. The agreement was that Reynolds would only continue supplying frames (100 per week) until the stocks of tubing had been used up (according to Ken Sprayson) after Norton suddenly cut them dead with no further orders for frames as they were buying the frames (£3.00) cheaper from Verlicchi.
Click to expand...
Thanks for all that. I get so much 3rd hand info, it will be nice to clean things up - book ordered.
 
marshg246 said:
Thanks for all that. I get so much 3rd hand info, it will be nice to clean things up - book ordered.
Click to expand...

An interesting book but only about a page on the Verlicchi business (and Ken seems to have got Wolverhampton mixed up with Small Heath).
 
L.A.B. said:
An interesting book but only about a page on the Verlicchi business (and Ken seems to have got Wolverhampton mixed up with Small Heath).
Click to expand...
Potential breakthrough on the 001xx numbers being batch numbers:

300107 has no number on the timing side and 00100 on the drive side.
304987 has no number on the timing side and 00109 on the drive side.
306028 has no number on the timing side and 00116 on the drive side.
312097 has 850F005218 on the timing side and 00122 on the drive side.
312547 has 850F107291 on the timing side and 00126 on the drive side.
318299 has 850F109123 on the timing side and 00127 on the drive side.
319416 has 850F107384 on the timing side and 00126 on the drive side.

Also, notice the frame numbers on the last three.
 
there was a fella named David Comeau (dyno dave - atlantic green technical services) that was collecting data on commando frames. here is the information he was asking for and i sent --

VIN 319523 --- frame batch number - 850 F113499 --- build date - august 74 --- rear frame loop - wide (measured 4 inches from the rear frame loop, inside dimension, approx. 7-3/8')
VIN plate lettering size, 5/32" --- frame p/n - dash/no dash - DASH (06-5632) it's very faint, but appears to be a dash --- manufacturer's VIN or data plate is mounted more toward
the LH side of the frame neck (aft looking forward) --- coil mounting bracket holes are round, NOT slotted.
Click to expand...

i'll have to check on the "00126" (batch) number.

EDIT - just checked my frame for a "00126" number on the drive side an found none. since my VIN plate is shifted to the left, it may be hidden under the plate. ??????? my frame seems to be a Mk3 configuration - has brackets for the 75-Mk3 hinged seat.

side note - although my VIN tag states an august 74 build date, the build date/dispatch records i got from andover-norton state september 74 for my bike.

Commando Survey
 
Last edited:
joe czech said:
there was a fella named David Comeau (dyno dave - atlantic green technical services) that was collecting data on commando frames. here is the information he was asking for and i sent --



i'll have to check on the "00126" (batch) number.

EDIT - just checked my frame for a "00126" number on the drive side an found none. since my VIN plate is shifted to the left, it may be hidden under the plate. ??????? my frame seems to be a Mk3 configuration - has brackets for the 75-Mk3 hinged seat.

side note - although my VIN tag states an august 74 build date, the build date/dispatch records i got from andover-norton state september 74 for my bike.

Commando Survey
Click to expand...
Interesting. My Mk11 about 250 units before your has the normal Mk11 frame. No hinged seat bracket.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top