Commando Restoration: Advice on Value and Machine

marknorton said:

Assuming the bike am almost certainly going to purchase is as bad as yours Htown, what is the most difficult and expensive operation you have carried out?
Has anyone uploaded a full spreadsheet of ground up restoration costs before this that I could view? i would be fascinated to see where exactly in the Black hole of rebuild costs that the money will certainly heamorrage.
Thanks for all your advice Guys.

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Old Britts has this all detailed out and is an excellent reference guide. Or you could just believe all us now-poor-Norton-owners. :mrgreen:

Old Britts Restoration Guide.

I'm not sure if this spreadsheet will layout properly, but here goes:

NORTON RESTORATION
COST
ITEM COMPLETED CONDITION PARTS SUBLET
CHASSIS
FRAME Powdercoated $250.00
SWINGARM Powdercoated $50.00
TRANNY CRADLE Powdercoated $50.00
SHOCKS NEW shocks $80.00
FORKS Overhaul & polish $120.00 $20.00
YOKES Powdercoated
HEAD BEARINGS New head bearings $20.00
ISOLASTICS Replace iso rubbers $350.00
F. WHEEL & HUB NEW nipples & spokes, rechrome rim $150.00 $175.00
F. WHEEL BRGS. NEW bearings $25.00
F. BRAKES Braided stainless hose $35.00
F. FENDER Polish, paint hardware
F. TIRE NEW Avon AM26 Roadrider $90.00 $35.00
F. AXLE Refurbish $20.00
R. WHEEL & HUB NEW nipples & spokes, rechrome rim $150.00 $175.00
R. WHEEL BRGS. NEW bearings $30.00
R. BRAKES O/haul master cyl & caliper, drill disc $30.00 $90.00
R. FENDER Polish, paint hardware
R. TIRE NEW Avon AM26 Roadrider $90.00 $25.00
R. AXLE & ADJUSTERS Replace missing parts $50.00
SPROCKET/DRUM Refurbish
CYCLE PARTS
SEAT NEW seat $250.00
SEAT KNOBS polished $15.00
GAS TANK Completely strip, seal & paint $50.00 $550.00
OIL TANK Paint $50.00
SIDECOVERS Paint $150.00
INSTRUMENTS Overhaul $300.00
AIR FILTER NEW K & N dual neck $75.00
HANDLEBARS NEW Clubman café $30.00
HEADLIGHT EARS Re-chrome $60.00
THROTTLE NEW Barnett $25.00
CLUTCH LEVER ASSY. NEW aluminum assy. $25.00
F.BRAKE LEVER ASSY. NEW UJM master cyl. Assy. $75.00
CENTERSTAND Powdercoat $20.00
SIDESTAND Powdercoat $10.00
MIRRORS NEW $65.00
FOOTPEGS Re-chrome $125.00
PILLION PEGS Rechrome, new rubbers $10.00 $40.00
SHIFTER Cleanup, new rubber $5.00
R.BRAKE PEDAL Rechrome $30.00
KICKSTART LEVER Rechrome $30.00
CABLES REPLACE ALL $120.00
CHAIN REPLACE $80.00
CHAINGUARD Re-chrome $50.00
BRACKETS Replace, powdercoat, repaint $20.00 $20.00
HARDWARE Replace as required, replate, cleanup $30.00 $50.00
RUBBER MOUNTS (ALL) REPLACE $25.00
Z-BRACKETS Polish $30.00
ELECTRICAL
HEADLIGHT NEW replacement $60.00
TAIL LIGHT Bulb $12.00
WIRING NEW harness $140.00
BATTERY REPLACE $60.00
SWITCHES NEW UJM handlebar switches $80.00
IGNITION Electronic ignition $150.00
COILS NEW coils $30.00
BOTTOM END
CRANKCASES One-way breather mod $50.00
CRANKSHAFT Clean sludge trap
MAIN BEARINGS NEW $240.00
RODS Cleanup, new bearings & bushings $40.00
PISTONS NEW pistons & rings $275.00
TIMING COVER Polish $20.00
CAM Cleanup
CAM BUSHINGS Cleanup
PRIMARY COVER Polish $30.00
PRI. CHAIN NEW primary chain $30.00
PRI. CHAIN TENSIONER NEW rubber foot $30.00
CAM CHAIN NEW camchain $20.00
CLUTCH Replace friction plates, cleanup $60.00
ALTERNATOR Cleanup
TRANNY CASE Cleanup
TRANNY COVER Polish $20.00
TRANNY GEARS Thorough cleanup
TRANNY BEARINGS & BUSHG'S Replace all $125.00
SPROCKET REPLACE $60.00
OIL PUMP Overhaul
GASKET SET NEW $80.00
OIL SEAL SET NEW $25.00
OIL LINES NEW incl. Rocker feed $135.00
TOP END
CYLINDERS Re-Bore, bead blast $165.00
TAPPETS Reface tappets $80.00
HEAD Bead blast, re-face valve seats $150.00
HEADBOLTS Cleanup
GUIDES NEW guides $80.00
VALVES New valves $100.00
SPRINGS Cleanup
ROCKERBOX CAPS Polish $30.00
PUSHRODS Cleanup
CARBS Overhaul kits $20.00
HEADERS NEW $175.00
EXHAUST NUTS NEW $60.00
MUFFLERS REPLACE (Peashooters) $160.00
ENGINE BOLTS & SCREWS Cad plated $65.00
CONSUMABLES, FLUIDS, SPARK PLUGS, ZIP TIES, ETC. $60.00
$4,482.00 $2,960.00 $5,000.00
PARTS SUBLET LABOR

SUBTOTAL RESTORATION (NO LABOR) $7,442.00

SUBTOTAL RESTORATION (WITH LABOR & MARKUP) $16,744.50

To get the "Grand Total", add the cost of your "donor" bike, and subtract stuff it doesn't need done.

marknorton said:

Assuming the bike am almost certainly going to purchase is as bad as yours Htown, what is the most difficult and expensive operation you have carried out?
Has anyone uploaded a full spreadsheet of ground up restoration costs before this that I could view? i would be fascinated to see where exactly in the Black hole of rebuild costs that the money will certainly heamorrage.

Click to expand...

Assuming you were able to buy the bike for what you intend to pay, every restoration is going to be something of an unknown quantity, as who knows what you might find when you get started, but if it's going to be all about spreadsheets and costs, then are you really sure you want to go ahead with this project?

So far I've spent
Purchase bike 2500$
Powder coat 450$
Paint & bodywork 500$
Plating 150$
Parts 3200$ (mainly along the lines of grandpauls list but not everything)

left to spend
machine work 300$
sleeve carbs 200$
additional parts 700$
total budget 8000$

I've also spent about 500$ on whitworth wrenches and other special tools.

Big disclaimer here. I'm into Brit Bikes as a hobby not as an investment. While I would hope that if this resto turns out okay I could recoup at least a good part of my money if I had to sell it, thats not what I plan to do. Also, I'll probably add some niceties once I start riding it. Just thought I would post this info so that someone considering a project had some idea as to costs. I hate to think about bikes being taken to bits to restore and then not finished.

Balance all this discussion with results from the recent Mid America Vegas auction, DeLand (Daytona) Auction, and recent e-bay SOLD results for Commandos...

THAT will give you an idea of what you MIGHT be able to recoup from a sale, but typically you'll have to settle for less in a buyer's market (what we have right now).

Thanks LAB. Yes the spreadsheet and cost is very very important. I accept that I will spend well over a purchase price if Ibought one on ebay, but I need to budget over a period of up to 3 years to do this properly and within my finances. so if I know I have to allow for say 2500 pounds per annum over 3 years then I will have a vague idea of where money is going to run out or where or whereabouts I should be at that point in time.
Hope I am making sense, as if my price is accepted i am doing the deal. Just want to go into it with my eyes open thats all.I want a restoration project you see as well as a beautiful work of design and engineering at the end that I can enjoy on summer days.
You do have a valid comment though and thanks for your post.

GrandPaul: thats Awesome. Thanks, I am sure I am not the only person who is going to benefit from this. Ahem... the question I have is.... I hope the bike is now finished? :wink:

Maybe..... :lol:

RoadScholar said:

Peter Egan of Cycle World just did an editorial on older Nortons, he purchased one. The article is very complimentary and could easily effect the value of our machines.

RS

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He's either got one bedeviling him or he's lusting after one. The guy's got it bad. :lol:

Danno said:

RoadScholar said:

Peter Egan of Cycle World just did an editorial on older Nortons, he purchased one. The article is very complimentary and could easily effect the value of our machines.

RS

Click to expand...

He's either got one bedeviling him or he's lusting after one. The guy's got it bad. :lol:

Click to expand...

He's had Commandos before when he wrote for Road & Track.

marknorton said:

GrandPaul: thats Awesome. Thanks, I am sure I am not the only person who is going to benefit from this. Ahem... the question I have is.... I hope the bike is now finished? :wink:

Click to expand...

It's the same basic spreadsheet I gave norbsa for the charity bie build, i use it on all my projects.

The numbers on the one I posted are more or less an average of the last few Commandos I've done, taking into consideration the custom versus OEM stuff.

marknorton said:

Thanks LAB. Yes the spreadsheet and cost is very very important. I accept that I will spend well over a purchase price if Ibought one on ebay, but I need to budget over a period of up to 3 years to do this properly and within my finances. so if I know I have to allow for say 2500 pounds per annum over 3 years then I will have a vague idea of where money is going to run out or where or whereabouts I should be at that point in time.
Hope I am making sense, as if my price is accepted i am doing the deal. Just want to go into it with my eyes open thats all.I want a restoration project you see as well as a beautiful work of design and engineering at the end that I can enjoy on summer days.
You do have a valid comment though and thanks for your post.

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The bike on ebay at £6000 is a pretty good guide to the current UK value of a Commando restored to this standard and it will be interesting to see how much higher the price goes. However, from my experiences it will cost a great deal more than £6000 to restore the bike pictured in your original post to the same condition. I have a very similar list to the one posted earlier by granpaul, and the total parts and services spend was just under £6000 not including the purchase price of the bike itself. Even more scary, my list is now five years old and parts prices have gone up quite a lot since then.
As a general guide there is a steady flow of Commandos offered for sale in the UK classic bike magazines and the usual price range seems to be £3500 to £5000 for a "ride-away" depending on condition.

Hey, mitch, I like your slogan.

By the way, those prices are discounted and not typical, you'd have to add AT LEAST 10% to them, (typically 30%) to get a better picture of what the averge person could source them for in most cases; some parts have a very small margin.

Restoration costs is a bit of a sticky situation. There is a guideline that says to buy the best example you can and start with that. Otherwise you will likely end up in the red. I know my 850 was purchased for $3500 and had only 4200 miles on it. Paint was excellent, just had to do the frame. Chrome was good to. So $700 later and it's on the road and running perfect. So I made out ok. 10 years ago I had purchased another 750 Commando that was very tired and needed everything rebuilt. I ended up selling that one to cut my loses at about $500. I could have easily dumped twice what it was worth into getting it on the road.

I know it's not generally acceptable but I look at every restoration as a potential for income. Do what needs to be done but not over do it. Some folks rebuild everything just because. I'm kind of an 'if it aint broke don't fix it' type of person and it has served me well on all my projects. Do the smart stuff and leave the rest until it really needs it.

lrutt said:

There is a guideline that says to buy the best example you can and start with that. Otherwise you will likely end up in the red.

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I disagree. As examples:

It costs the same amount to powdercoat a frame in good shape as a rusty one.

It costs the same to paint a fair tank & sidecovers as it does to paint a really scratched up faded set.

It costs the same to replace worn out rod bearing shells as it does to replace only slightly worn pieces.

It costs the same to clean out a fairly decent engine & sludge trap as it does filthy, grimy ones.

It costs the same to replace good used tires as it does to replace totally bald ones.

It costs the same to....

...well, you get the picture.

I feel if a person is looking to do a total restoration, they should start with the least expensive, RELATIVELY COMPLETE rolling project bike as possible. A barely-running but rideable bike is a great basis for a total restoration for someone looking to say they "did the whole thing"; the fact that it's running is a big hurdle, and you know the critical parts are all there since it's rideable .

PLENTY of folks have "ended up in the red" even when starting with VERY NICE "donor" bikes. The restoration game is not a money-maker; I'm only persisting in it because I have the luxury of being debt-free (except some credit card debt), and loving to do what I do. If I had to be servicing a mortgage or even a typical car payment, I might be working 8 to 5 to make ends meet.

I think the word restoration means different things to different people, There is a 72 Combat at a shop near me that is a nice complete bike with a metal tank that I am told runs strong and is in nice shape. This bike would only need a paint job and a little polish to be a great rider. Some people would buy the thing and tear it to bits and go through the whole thing, Some might just put fuel in it and just ride it. The guy wants $4,500.00 for it and if I had the room I might just buy it. I think what lrutt means is that you can start with something cheap and end up with a money pit, Or you can start with a bike that needs very little work and make a few bucks on it. I have never looked at a bike like an investment, I don't try to make money on them. But I still want to have a bike that is reliable enough to take on long rides without worrying the thing is going to break. We all have different ideas on what a bike should cost and it's value. To me when I buy a bike I want one that needs a bit of work. That's what makes it fun, Going in the garage and getting greasy and having the satisfaction of doing it myself. But one thing we have in common is we all love to RIDE, Right? Have a great day and ride safe, Chuck.

Funnily I just bought a 71 Fastback last Friday in pretty original condition, plan is that a good clean and service (which I'm halfway through) I'll just ride it and see what occurs, its never gong to win a concours competition but its what I call a good honest bike.
I'm from the school of buy something thats running and reaonable then do a rolling restoration while your having fun riding it.
The problem is when you "restore" something then it gets left at home when the weather turns mucky because you don't want it to get dirty.

swooshdave said:

Danno said:

RoadScholar said:

Peter Egan of Cycle World just did an editorial on older Nortons, he purchased one. The article is very complimentary and could easily effect the value of our machines.

RS

Click to expand...

He's either got one bedeviling him or he's lusting after one. The guy's got it bad. :lol:

Click to expand...

He's had Commandos before when he wrote for Road & Track.

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Yes, and they bedeviled him. Have you ever read "The Tale of the Manxton Contaminator Twin"? It's his story about trying to ride his brand-new MkIII cross country. Funny stuff.

He's had Commandos before when he wrote for Road & Track.[/quote]
Yes, and they bedeviled him...[/quote]

As they have most everyone on this board. :wink:

I love that term "rolling restoration". You can keep riding and do a little bit every year even if it takes you 15-20-30 years to come full circle. So many bikes are "torn into" by someone (with probably good intentions at the time) never to be put back together again or they do a royal cob job. That bites the big one.

Russ