Commando in Context.
- Thread starter J.A.W.
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OK Bill, as a classic example of your 180 degree issue, you wrote that if the design was better all would use it.
I pointed out that not all markets [like the motorcycle market] are logical or scientific or use what is best, due to market/profit manipulations, now you have come around to stating that yourself, [perhaps on your way to vanishing up your own black hole of logical absurdity?] Cue Monty Python.. "Is this a 5min argument or the full 1/2 hr"...I`m sorry you haven`t paid...
I pointed out that not all markets [like the motorcycle market] are logical or scientific or use what is best, due to market/profit manipulations, now you have come around to stating that yourself, [perhaps on your way to vanishing up your own black hole of logical absurdity?] Cue Monty Python.. "Is this a 5min argument or the full 1/2 hr"...I`m sorry you haven`t paid...
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I think its the rattle that got him .
i can recall turning up at the invite 9 am for a ' ride ' . The first 1/4 hour consited of four blokes figureing out what a quater turn was , then the next half ,
attempting it , the next quater checking the rattles all matched . For people ( we assume ) that havnt mastered valve clearances , the two stroke makes a
lot of sense .
And theres allways the constant rattle , if they cant abide peace and quite.
After this it was a quick break to replenish their energies , another 1/2 hoour to dress & the farewells .
So at 11 , we're off .For a quick whoosh and a break to regain equilibrium , repeted unill disoriented
then back to mezmerisation of the box as it was getting a bit late . . .
i can recall turning up at the invite 9 am for a ' ride ' . The first 1/4 hour consited of four blokes figureing out what a quater turn was , then the next half ,
attempting it , the next quater checking the rattles all matched . For people ( we assume ) that havnt mastered valve clearances , the two stroke makes a
lot of sense .
And theres allways the constant rattle , if they cant abide peace and quite.
After this it was a quick break to replenish their energies , another 1/2 hoour to dress & the farewells .
So at 11 , we're off .For a quick whoosh and a break to regain equilibrium , repeted unill disoriented
then back to mezmerisation of the box as it was getting a bit late . . .
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Ah shoot just being the most efficient or power to weight ain't the whole equation in real life. Picture this yoose two, two rallys of say 200 similar models, one 2 stroke the other 4 stroke and they all gather together for a same time start up and roar up, which one would you want hang around the longest while doing it?
I've tasted both, in high school gatherings and more recently Commando centered. There is also a sense of lingering smell to consider too. A small dash of bean oil in 4 stroke gasoline does it for me. Do that much in 2 stroke at home can overwhelm. At some level its just what ya like in the delivery to live with.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXVRdSbKDT8[/video]
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=wRqggHv-8dA[/video]
oh yeah has any one ever seen a 2 smoke chopper?
I've tasted both, in high school gatherings and more recently Commando centered. There is also a sense of lingering smell to consider too. A small dash of bean oil in 4 stroke gasoline does it for me. Do that much in 2 stroke at home can overwhelm. At some level its just what ya like in the delivery to live with.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXVRdSbKDT8[/video]
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=wRqggHv-8dA[/video]
oh yeah has any one ever seen a 2 smoke chopper?
All other considerations aside, motorcycles are about fun, something most kids are good at and most adults have almost forgotten about.
For me, at 57, I have fun on all of them but the funometer goes off the scale on that hyper, old, insane 2 stroke Maico. And it will destroy my 34 year old friend's yz 490, handling, power the whole works. Another friend rides a newish 4 stroke 450 ktm exc, nice bike, but he can only watch the fun from behind.
Even the 250 Ossa mars want to lift the front end, detuned for serious stump pulling as they are. I guess they cant help it, 192 pounds, 250 cc 2 stroke, they just have to give a kick.
Glen
For me, at 57, I have fun on all of them but the funometer goes off the scale on that hyper, old, insane 2 stroke Maico. And it will destroy my 34 year old friend's yz 490, handling, power the whole works. Another friend rides a newish 4 stroke 450 ktm exc, nice bike, but he can only watch the fun from behind.
Even the 250 Ossa mars want to lift the front end, detuned for serious stump pulling as they are. I guess they cant help it, 192 pounds, 250 cc 2 stroke, they just have to give a kick.
Glen
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The SAABs were mighty little cars . They used to roll them out of South african mud holes , until clear . Heave under the sills and flip it over and out .
Stirling Moss'es Sister married one of the drivers .
Pat Moss & Ann Wisdom .
First thing her brother taght her , was to see how long you could wait before applying the brakes .
Stirling Moss'es Sister married one of the drivers .
Pat Moss & Ann Wisdom .
First thing her brother taght her , was to see how long you could wait before applying the brakes .
AH so - Nippon H2 Chopper? HAI... BANZAI!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJuA4OrzuUc
& for Bill, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN48kxZut98
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJuA4OrzuUc
& for Bill, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN48kxZut98
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More like an obnoxious bobber to me but does get up and go... As a child of the 2 stroke cycle era I listened through the night at various bike passing by but always wanted more of the 4 strokes which were generally bigger though.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vju2pyqXBLg[/video]
this is fun to listen too and watch, but do note how sharp decreasing radi they can do with a bit of straight steering thrown in.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsEwHay-4fg[/video]
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vju2pyqXBLg[/video]
this is fun to listen too and watch, but do note how sharp decreasing radi they can do with a bit of straight steering thrown in.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsEwHay-4fg[/video]
Hobot, you wannahear a 2T conention?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJtd9cSZ ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJtd9cSZ ... re=related
What I said was that products are market driven BUT it must ALSO meet emission,fuel mileage and safety regulations to be sold. So it has more to it than JUST look at what I built or what I spent my money for. Again the ding pop so far has NOT met the emissions or fuel mileage requirements to be sold in a street vehicle. Your opinion of it being BEST is a moot point as I cannot as of today buy your BEST power plant in any road going vehicle. if it was the best logically or scientifically it would be in the market place as a major player. So far it has NOT met the emissions requirements or fuel mileage so there goes your scientifically better theory.
J.A.W. said:
Yes, a toe in the water approach, BMW have had bigger 2T plans in store for some time, & so have KTM, what becomes of them we shall see - anyhow Bill, your predictions are not fact based , but never-the-less, grumpy old man mentality aside, you were wrong regarding the core thread issues, whether your ego allows you to admit it or not..
Yes, WRONG, Bill..heres a list for you..since you have to have it listed to see it.
1, Vibration causes/subjective effects.
2, H2 torque development.
3, 2T Logic.
4, Emissions/economy characteristics of DFI.
5, Business model of motorcycle sales vs coldly logical rational scientific approach.
6, Why Honda does NOT sell chainsaws...L.O.L.
1, Vibration causes/subjective effects.
2, H2 torque development.
3, 2T Logic.
4, Emissions/economy characteristics of DFI.
5, Business model of motorcycle sales vs coldly logical rational scientific approach.
6, Why Honda does NOT sell chainsaws...L.O.L.
OK
#1 vibration has numerous causes. engine layout, balance factor used, RPM range it is operated in and the quality control in mass production to name a few. if done right there is not much to say, but if wrong it can break sales of the product.
#2 you can tune an engine to make torque or horsepower in a given RPM range be it a ding pop or 4 stroke. it depends what the design calls for.
#3 it is not a logical choice in today's market like it was in years past as can be seen by it's availability today.
#4 are you kidding me??? it has yet to meet today's emission or fuel economy standards for a major road vehicle.even on the BRP web site the DFI ring ding suffers a huge deficiency in fuel mileage V the 4 stroke.
#5 you still don't get it
#6 done been answered
#1 vibration has numerous causes. engine layout, balance factor used, RPM range it is operated in and the quality control in mass production to name a few. if done right there is not much to say, but if wrong it can break sales of the product.
#2 you can tune an engine to make torque or horsepower in a given RPM range be it a ding pop or 4 stroke. it depends what the design calls for.
#3 it is not a logical choice in today's market like it was in years past as can be seen by it's availability today.
#4 are you kidding me??? it has yet to meet today's emission or fuel economy standards for a major road vehicle.even on the BRP web site the DFI ring ding suffers a huge deficiency in fuel mileage V the 4 stroke.
#5 you still don't get it
#6 done been answered
J.A.W. said:
WOW - Bill, is that your way of admitting you were wrong? L.O.L.
& as a matter of interest, just what are the "fuel economy standards" for roadbikes?
What you fail to comprehend is that power costs fuel, that 6002T sled that you say is thirstier than the 6004T also makes much more power, like-wise my RZ 350 uses about as much juice as your Commando, but makes about the same power [& out-right performance,] too, from <1/2 the cc.
& as a matter of interest, just what are the "fuel economy standards" for roadbikes?
What you fail to comprehend is that power costs fuel, that 6002T sled that you say is thirstier than the 6004T also makes much more power, like-wise my RZ 350 uses about as much juice as your Commando, but makes about the same power [& out-right performance,] too, from <1/2 the cc.
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bill said:OK
#1 vibration has numerous causes. = rattle = brains loose . Actually osscilations or occurences . Then theres harmonics . Which are actually fairly usefull .
' Vibration ' sounds so negetive .
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