Charging Puzzle

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We have massive 1150 CCA AGM batteries at work for Thermo King fridge plants, we had a few complaints and some returns from customers saying they would not charge up.
What happens in our game is people leave the lights on in the semi trailer, and drain the battery, fridge won't crank, so they charge the battery.
We found out that conventionla battery chargers will not charge AGM batteries correctly, especially if they are reasonably discharged. They will only charge to about 80% then the battery refuses to take further. Something to do with the current in rush and technical stuff. Long and short we bought a so called AGM compatible charger, and we restored all the returned batteries to perfect health.
I have a Deka AGM in my old Shovelhead, these bikes a notorious for working over batteries, she is stoked out to 84 inches and has a little more compression ratio than basic Harley's had, so the battery and started need to be good. Well the battery has been in service since 2007 I left the bike for 6-months one time, and bang on the starter and she roared into life. So decent brand/quality AGM are great and hold charge very well.

Cheers Richard
 
I have AGM batteries that have sat on my shelf for years and still show 12V. The reading at 11.4 means it has a problem. If you look at discharge rates of a 12V battery, once it actually hits 12v (down from say 12.5) it has already lost a high percentage of its useful juice.

Russ
 
If you steal the battery out of your UPS or the fire panel at work they are often 7 AH batterys with spade terminals (usually two 12v batteries in series for a 24v system). They work well for a test of the charging system on your bike. You can probably buy one at the local supplier for about 20 bucks. When I swap out the fire panel batteries I always keep the ones that show above 12V for this kind of stuff as I find them handy to have around. Might be worth it if you have any concerns that the charging system is at fault.

Russ
 
swooshdave said:
pvisseriii said:
I think it means that it is not a bad battery but it is gettting weak. It seems to operate but the numbers are down. What is the AH rating?
Click to expand...

6AH

Here's a link to the battery:

http://www.batterystuff.com/powersports ... YTZ7S.html
Click to expand...
Man, that (6ah) seems fairly weak for the demands of a Norton. I do not recall what you have for a stator and regulator setup, if a stock 130 watt system, I wouldn't touch anything less than 10ah, 12ah is what i would put in with 130 watt stator. I have a 200 watt setup and the 14ah is perfect.

I know what you have is what OB sells but it is just not worth the $20 savings to go with what will barely survive. Unless you go with a LI type $$$$, the rule of thumb is to go with the biggest battery you can stick there. Perhaps for you, a 9ah or 10ah will do for you as a good compromise. Again, I would go right to a 12ah.

I would not be so closed to go with the old liquid acid either. For the money, they will do the job just fine. 10 to 12ah. Trust me!
We really cannot afford to go without lights just to keep it running.

They just passed the no helmet law here in Mich. I see about 50/50 helmet to no helmet.

"Keep it simple and keep it on the road." Peter Visser
 
pvisseriii said:
swooshdave said:
pvisseriii said:
I think it means that it is not a bad battery but it is gettting weak. It seems to operate but the numbers are down. What is the AH rating?
Click to expand...

6AH

Here's a link to the battery:

http://www.batterystuff.com/powersports ... YTZ7S.html
Click to expand...
Man, that (6ah) seems fairly weak for the demands of a Norton. I do not recall what you have for a stator and regulator setup, if a stock 130 watt system, I wouldn't touch anything less than 10ah, 12ah is what i would put in with 130 watt stator. I have a 200 watt setup and the 14ah is perfect.

I know what you have is what OB sells but it is just not worth the $20 savings to go with what will barely survive. Unless you go with a LI type $$$$, the rule of thumb is to go with the biggest battery you can stick there. Perhaps for you, a 9ah or 10ah will do for you as a good compromise. Again, I would go right to a 12ah.

I would not be so closed to go with the old liquid acid either. For the money, they will do the job just fine. 10 to 12ah. Trust me!

"Keep it simple to keep it on the road." Peter Visser
Click to expand...

There was a long discussion on batteries and AH a couple years ago. For a kickstart bike the thought was that you could go small on the battery. There is a chance I went too small but I hoped by going mostly LED there should be very little load, just headlight and Boyer. What I probably need to do it ditch the Boyer for something that's more efficient.

Batterystuff.com has a nice troubleshooting guide, I'll try that and see what I come up with.

http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/policies ... ranty.html

But I'm closing in at 22 mo so I doubt they will do much for me.

LiFe is tempting...
 
I would venture a guess that your charging system may not be up to the task, or you're running with too many lights or current draw for some reason. It's easy to check. Get a cheap volt meter that will read at least 1/10's of a volt, like 12.5 VDC and hook it up so you can watch it when you ride. If the voltage is not staying above 13.5 or more at speed, you are not keeping the battery charged. It will drop off a lot at idle, but shouldn't drop below 12.0.

Like I say, charge the battery until it's fully charged, 13.5V or more, remove the charger and let it sit like the battery people say for at least 12 hours, 24 is better. If it's not at least over 12.0V, it's a goner. Mine will hold 12.7V for a week or more. AGM batteries do not like high current chargers, keep the charge to 4A or less, less is better but longer. Mine has the charging rate and time right on the battery.

Measure volts right on the battery terminals and make sure your connections are clean.

Of course do not do this in the freezer or while using the Ipod.

Dave
69S
 
I do have just the regular alternator. I'll do the multimeter trick, I can just tie it to the phone mount... :mrgreen:
 
A simple check of the charging system is to :

1) start the bike, then disconnect the battery ( disconnect the positive - earth ), the bike should continue running.

2) rev the bike to about 3,000, turn on all the lights, the bike should continue running,

If all of this works the charging system is OK.

The alternator should be able to run the bike at idle, and all electrical services at 3,000 plus RPM.
 
That may or may not work, Josh. There are just too many variations on what is happening in my book. If the rotor is weak, it may seem fine, but won't hold up to a good run with lights. The only real way is to keep an eye on the battery voltage while running long term. It's probably not a bad idea to run it without the battery and the voltmeter to see what's going on too, though, sometimes the battery will drag down the charging system because the battery is sucking the system.

Dave
69S
 
If the battery is consuming power, it maybe be bubbling and will be hot to touch ( the energy has to go somewhere - heat ).
 
I'll update this as I go along.

http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/policies ... ranty.html

Step #1: Disconnect the battery from the system, remove cables and connectors, and clean off the terminals. Take a voltage reading for reference and make sure to write it down.

Charging Puzzle


Step #2: Try to charge the battery with the 12 volt charger. Hook it up to the charger and let it charge for a full cycle.

Charging Puzzle

Fully charged.

Step #3: After the charger indicates that the battery is fully charged, or if it has charged for more than 8 hours, disconnect the charger from the battery. Let it sit for 30 minutes and then take another voltage reading.

Charging Puzzle

After 30 minutes, dropped .03V

Step #4: Let the battery sit for 12 hours with no load, DO NOT load test at this time. After the 12 hours take another volt reading. You should be recording the results of each of these readings as you go.

Charging Puzzle

Another small drop.

Step #5: Hook the battery back up to the bike, or RV, or whatever you took it out of. If you are testing a starting battery, hold the volt meter on the battery while you attempt to start the motor. Record what the voltage drops to. If you are testing a RV battery, turn on as many electrical devices as you can while the voltmeter is on the battery.

Charging Puzzle

After running the high beam (and tail light) for 10 minutes.
Click to expand...

So previously I just ran the high beam for a few minutes. Will that be a sufficient load test?
 
Read and follow the instructions you just sent, to the letter. You need to follow the instructions exactly. Spurious information is useless. Sorry to be rude.

Dave
69S
 
DogT said:
Read and follow the instructions you just sent, to the letter. You need to follow the instructions exactly. Spurious information is useless. Sorry to be rude.

Dave
69S
Click to expand...

Rude is one thing, but you didn't answer the question. Do you think that just high beam will be sufficient. I can't think of any other load available. Honk the horn? Turn signals?
 
For goodness sake. A questionable battery will leave you stranded, particularly a 6ah battery. Just lose the damn thing.
 
I didn't read anything in the instructions you sent about load testing with the headlamp. Just do as they say, charge it and let it sit for a day and check the voltage. Simple as that. But if it's reading less than 12 V after a few min. on the headlamp, I'd say its gone. A 50W headlamp will draw about 4A, the 7 AH battery should keep the lamp running for something less than 2 hours, but that's a bad test, too much current.

Dave
69S
 
DogT said:
I didn't read anything in the instructions you sent about load testing with the headlamp. Just do as they say, charge it and let it sit for a day and check the voltage. Simple as that. But if it's reading less than 12 V after a few min. on the headlamp, I'd say its gone. A 50W headlamp will draw about 4A, the 7 AH battery should keep the lamp running for something less than 2 hours, but that's a bad test, too much current.

Dave
69S
Click to expand...


Step #5: Hook the battery back up to the bike, or RV, or whatever you took it out of. If you are testing a starting battery, hold the volt meter on the battery while you attempt to start the motor. Record what the voltage drops to. If you are testing a RV battery, turn on as many electrical devices as you can while the voltmeter is on the battery.
Click to expand...

How would you accomplish Step #5?
 
Just turn on everything you can and watch the voltage. It shouldn't drop below 12V for maybe 5 min. or more.

But still the best test is to let it sit for a day after charging and then read the voltage. That will tell you the state of the battery. Go here http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles ... asics.html and read part 6, battery testing, the first 2 paragraphs describe the test and show the voltages you should get for the state of the battery.

Dave
69S
 
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