Charging Issues?

I'm about to head out to the shed to try and figure this out. I know I'll frustrated at some point and need some fresh ideas so I'll get this on here now in hopes there'll be a few replies when I need a breather.

Wheeled the Norton out last night for the first time in 2 weeks, turned the key and the headlight barely gave a yellow glow. Previous to this it was bright as day even before starting the engine, although I do normally start the bike before turning the lights on.
I had a swapmeet and show'n'shine to attend this morning so I threw a small Yuasa YTZ7S in there, which only gives out 6Ah, compared to the standard CB14L-A2 14Ah but the bike started fine.
Took off this morning and she started popping and farting on decelleration, and it got worse as I continued on. I decided to turn back after about 5 minutes and pulled the plugs once home. They were just starting to turn white, after having been black from the carb being a tad rich before.
Haven't charged up the old battery yet, but it's only 3 months old and has had regular rides in the past 2 months, so no obvious reason why it would have gone flat in two weeks.
I haven't changed anything since the last bunch of faultless running rides. Yesterday I removed the HT leads from the single dual output coil and replaced them. I also disconnected the wires from the threaded lugs on either side of the coil, but replaced them as they were. This was all after I had notice the battery being almost dead.

So, waddya reckon fellas?

Re: Charching Issues?

Hi Don,

The first think I would do it hook up a volt meter to the battery and read what it says with the bike not started.

Then, I would start the bike and bring the idle up to about 2000rpm, you should see the volt meter showing more volts, over 13 or so, to indicate the alternator is charging the battery.

If there is no increase in voltage, you know you have probably a faulty wiring issue that has developed.

Maybe one of the wires coming out of the stator in the primary has fractured and is not sending currect back to the battery to charge it up, or it could be a number of other things all related.

But at least get out the volt meter and do this first, if raising the idle shows an increase in volts then you at least know you can rule that out.

Report back and we can take it from there with you!

Re: Charching Issues?

Charging issues, perchance, with a g ?

A small battery, not being charged, would soon not supply enough volts - if you have a leccy ignition fitted, some hate low volts...

If the battery isn't charging, then obviously something is amiss on the alternator side of things.
Out with the multimeter, and see what volts its putting out.

May need to also check that there is no short or drain on the battery leads and the wiring it supplies. Chafed wires or dud components can be a possible culprit here.

hth.

Re: Charching Issues?

first off you'll need to put in a good know battery fully charged.
Get it started and put a volt meter on it and see what is showing at idle.
Rev it up and see if the voltage goes up with it.
If it does then the charging system is working.

At idle you should get around 12.5 volts and at rev get around 13.5 to 14v.
If it is higher than that then it is over charging and possibly frying the battery.
There are tests for the various componants to the charging system which is something I would have to look up in the manual.
But if after 2 weeks your battery is almost dead I would look for a closed circuit some where which would cause a power drain.
Got a manual? A volt meter?
I bought a Actron engine analyzer from AutoZone for around $50. It fit in your palm. A must have.
Start there.
Popping on decel could be loose exhaust nuts.

Re: Charching Issues?

Y'all beat me to it.

Re: Charching Issues?

Hey Rohan, I just noticed my spelling mistake. Bloody embarrasing.

Alright, I went over the wiring, found a slightly loose Lucas connector at the Boyer box and fixed it up. Also renewed the battery connectors as they were looking a little tired after years of being bent and twisted. Wires from the alternator are snug, all connectors from them to regulator and so forth appear good. Any hidden wires or somewhere not so obvious that I need to check? Will the rear brake light wires being disconnected affect anything here?
Made sure the Boyer plate is still tight and in place under the points cover, checked that connections are still snug, all good.
Went to the auto shop and picked up a multimeter. After a crash course (self taught) I reckon I've got some basics down. Measured the battery, after charging, at about 12v. Hooked up to bike and reads about the same, ignition on, same, headlight on it drops to about 6v to 7v. Started it up and the reading jumps erratically all over the place, at idle or at revs, anywhere from about 2v to 13v. The 3 wires coming from the alternator are sealed until they meet the connectors leading to the battery box.
I read the manual on testing the alternator. Wuhhhh? This is where I get lost in the electrics game, due to lack of experience. Connect a voltmeter (set to AC) with a 1-ohm resistor wired parallel to the alternator leads? Ok, voltmeter: check. AC scale: check, I think. 1-ohm resistor wired parallel.... Nah, ya lost me mate.
Seeing as I'm running a high output alternator and no zener diode and all that original stuff, does the testing method differ?
Can anyone dumb it down for me?

Guido, I'm showing some electrical ignorance here, what do you mean by "closed ciruit"?

Awww shizzle, it's been going so well dammit.

thanks guys!

The 3 wires coming from the alternator are sealed until they meet the connectors leading to the battery box.

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What device do you have between the alternator and the battery? Since the output from the alternator is AC (alternating current), it must be converted to DC (direct current) for the battery. In your case, since you mentioned three wires from the alternator, you must have a three phase alternator which would require a three phase rectifier/regulator device. Podtronics rectifier/regulators are quite common for the three phase conversion. A zener would not be used with the Podtronics. From your post it appears the rectifier/regulator is not working, incorrectly wired or possibly not even installed.

Re: Charching Issues?

Cowboy Don said:

Guido, I'm showing some electrical ignorance here, what do you mean by "closed ciruit"?

Awww shizzle, it's been going so well dammit.

thanks guys!

Click to expand...

I know how you feel there Cowboy.
A closed circuit just means that there is a connection that is on.
For example, you have a battery, a wire goes from it to a light and then a wire from the light to a ground.
In between the battery and the light is a switch to turn it on and off.
When off the circuit is broken therefore it is open because the connection is not continuous.

Now, since you have a 3 wire unit I won't find anything in the shop manual to help you.
Jim suggest it could be the rectifier/regulator.
What condition is you wiring harness in?
Could just be a bad connection.

In all fairness I am not an electrician but I can track down electrical problems even though I am color blind and need the help of someone to tell what certain colors are.
Charging system problems are real easy to trouble shoot because there is only 4 things to check, alt, reg, capacitor and batt since you have no Zener diode.
Jumping all over the place? Sounds like a loose connection.
See if the regulator has a name on it, or the alternator and post it here.

Let me see here you stated "no zener diode and all that original stuff". So I will assume that you already have a self contained solid state Regulator/rectifier unit. well, it's bad. You need to replace it.

Now also say you have a high output stator, make darn sure you get the High Output Podtronics (or equivalent) unit to match. And don't let this happen again.

Guido, ya dumbed it down enough for me, thanks. So perhaps it could be a short in the key switch for example, leaving the ignition on even when the key is off.
Pvisserii, could it be that simple? I hope so. I don't know the brand but my regulator looks the same as one of these:

And that could be a possibility. On my last ride I noticed the regulator had come free from it's perch and was sitting loose in front of the battery on the tray. It didn't have anywhere to go and only had about 20mm either way to bounce around so I left it as is until I got home. Are they delicate enough inside to get damaged like this? I would've thought they'd be tougher, as they have to put up with the vibes of a Brit twin day-to-day.
I will continue to search for broken wires/connections/earths tomorrow as I don't want to jump to conclusions. It's an expensive part to try out a theory, albeit so far the most logical theory.

Wouldn't a damaged regulator blow the globes though? This happened on my Gas Gas EC300 after I had the stator rewound for higher output to run brighter lights. I had forgotten to fit my new regulator before my test run and the stock reg. couldn't handle the load, shat itself, and the H4 headlight globe blew. Before I realized my mistake I fit another globe and that blew as well. Got home, fit the new reg. and all was good.
No blown globes on the Norton, even after about 15-20mins of run time.

All good stuff. Will soldier on and report back tomorrow.

If I were you, I wouldn't just go buying parts until you have established which part is defective. As it stands, I don't think you have established that. You'll have to dig into it and see if the alternator is putting out correctly. Then determine if the electronic unit is making the correct DC for the battery, and you need to also establish that the battery is not defective. Wouldn't be a bad idea to check the wiring also, with the battery disconnected and the ohm meter, check your switches and wiring for continuity and loose connections (physically move wires around while checking with ohm meter). It could still be as simple as a loose connection.

Dave
69S

DogT said:

If I were you, I wouldn't just go buying parts until you have established which part is defective. As it stands, I don't think you have established that. You'll have to dig into it and see if the alternator is putting out correctly. Then determine if the electronic unit is making the correct DC for the battery, and you need to also establish that the battery is not defective. Wouldn't be a bad idea to check the wiring also, with the battery disconnected and the ohm meter, check your switches and wiring for continuity and loose connections (physically move wires around while checking with ohm meter). It could still be as simple as a loose connection.

Dave
69S

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Cowboy, this is an easy thing to do. Disconnect the red and black wires from the what certainly appears to be a 3 phase Podtronics unit and hook the leads of the new meter to them. Startthe bike and watch the voltage bounce.
Yes, it can be that simple.

You can check the alternator without a load resistor, but using one gives a better indication of its power.

First do a static measurement, disconnect all the yellow wires, take a resistance reading from all yellow wires relative to each other (A, B and C -- A to B, A to C and B to C) you should read around one ohm. Them measure from any yellow wire to ground, the reading should be open.

With the engine running, you should measure over 20 volts AC beteen any of the yellow wires (A, B and C -- A to B, A to C and B to C). You can connect the headlight bulb as a load between any and all two yelow wires, the bulb should light and go brigher as you rev, you could blow it if the alternator is good and you rev the engine too high.

If the alternator seems to be good, connect the alternator to the regulator and connect the bulb as a load to the black and red wires and measure the voltage on the DC scale, it should read at least 14 volts when you rev the engine.

Jean

Finished checking over all wiring, from nose to tail. Of course I can't check inside the loom.
Pvisserii, did as you said, disconnected black and red wires from regulator (label on back of unit confirms it as Podtronics brand). Readings are dismal, jumps between 1-4v, no matter the revs.
Now, with this info, can we assume it is most definitely the regulator? Or can the alternator still be the culprit, so I should I continue and do as Jeandr says? That will be fun, never done any resistance testing. What does it mean by the reading being 'open'? And to read between the wires, does that mean I just place the red and black needles from the multimeter into the connectors?

Just to be sure, yes, do what Jeandr says. This is basically the same as with the black and red wire, but with the wires coming from the stator. Again, make sure to set the meter to AC for these stator wires.

Cowboy Don said:

What does it mean by the reading being 'open'? And to read between the wires, does that mean I just place the red and black needles from the multimeter into the connectors?

Click to expand...

Open means no resistance, as in an open switch. Yes put the red and black from the meter into the connectors, do just as Jean says and make sure none of the wires from the stator have low resistance to ground.

Dave

Checked resistance between the 3 alternator wires with ignition off. I set my multimeter to 200 in the Ohm scale (the other options were 2000, 20k, 200k & 2000k) and got readings of 1.5. Between the wires and earth, no reading.
I started the engine and set the multimter to 20m on the AC scale. As before, the readings just jumped all over the place, anywhere from 1v to 13v, even dipping into the negative readings. I tried all AC settings on the meter, 200u (not sure what this symbol is, can anyone explain?), 2000u, 20m & 200m. All gave the same result. I had a hard time doing this while revving, no one around to help, so the readings are really only accurate at idle
Am I doing this correctly? I bloody well hope not, I'd hate my stator to be shot, or something even more sinister.

Here's my multimeter:


This is a better pic, not exactly the same as mine but very close:


Thanks again Guys!

Ahem. Umm. Ok, so maybe I did it wrong, just perhaps.
When measuring the AC voltage from the 3 stator wires I think I was using the wrong settings. I had the meter set in the 'A=' scale. That's me making assumptions. 'A' for 'AC', not quite so. So tried the 'V-(pretend that's a squigley line) setting at 200 and I get a reading between 16v to 22v, but mostly settles at around 19.9v. It would drop very briefly to about 5v but certainly did not jump around as before.
Does this make more sense?

Sounds like your stator is OK, but may want to try each set with a load, like a headlamp unless you have a large 1 ohm resistor. Yes you want to be in the V~ (ACVolts) 200 position. The A= position is DC amps. If your stator is working, then check the output of the podtronics for DC output and charging the battery, but make sure the battery is good. A bad battery can throw it off.

Dave
69S

Suggest you remove the Reg/rec and get it checked under load so that you will know that that is not at fault.
Also clean frame battery earth termial and reteat voltage.
If no joy, there may be a broken wire/ connector along the alternator or reg/rec wire somewhere .
If you do find any wire/ connector corroded –by this I mean copper wire under the insulation that has gone Green/brown
or even black then it may affect the alternator i.e. Kill it, ---every time you run the engine with a electrical charging fault-you will sooner rather than later, affect the charging output permanently.
HTH