Chain thread
- Thread starter andychain
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Ok, I'll start. The 420 O-ring chain that drives my small tractor's snowblower broke when I stuffed it into an Ice bank...
A) would a NON O-ring chain be stronger ? (We can see the pin is bent)
B) would a riveted master link have faired better?
A) would a NON O-ring chain be stronger ? (We can see the pin is bent)
B) would a riveted master link have faired better?
a) The main fault here is the chain is completely worn out. You are through the hardening
and on to soft stuff which is why it is bent. Strength is not an issue quality is so non O ring
may have a slightly less breaking load but in this case the chain has snapped due to overload.
However a non O ring chain would have let you know it was worn before it got to this state.
and on to soft stuff which is why it is bent. Strength is not an issue quality is so non O ring
may have a slightly less breaking load but in this case the chain has snapped due to overload.
However a non O ring chain would have let you know it was worn before it got to this state.
b) No a good connecting link is fine, if it bothers you lock wire the clip and plate. I know this
goes against popular thought but there are some bad clips out there see previous posts where
I put pics on the forum. I was kicked over the pics but stand by my thoughts. Every talk I do
I demonstrate the difference and it is plain to see.
goes against popular thought but there are some bad clips out there see previous posts where
I put pics on the forum. I was kicked over the pics but stand by my thoughts. Every talk I do
I demonstrate the difference and it is plain to see.
I use a P11 for Vintage Motocross and, typically, get about 2 to 3 weekends (8 to 12 motos) out of a 530 chain, regardless of source or brand. In addition, I have issues with the chain hitting engine mount bolts on the inside & rubbing on the primary case on the outside. My maintenance protocol has been to, between events, remove & soak in kerosene for about a week then drain & vacuum dry with a powerful shop vac (to pull debris out rather than push it in with compressed air). After the kero soak-n-vac, it soaks in Mobil 1 gear oil for a week or two, stirring about occasionally, 'till just before the next event.
Having read your posts regarding heavy chain contributing more to wear than the loads we can apply, and to address the clearance issues, I'm considering thinning my sprockets & changing to 520 chain. Doing so, I'll have clearance enough to use either o-ring or non 0-ring chain. I suspect that the wear issues have a good bit to do with the operating environment as the tracks I ride get pretty dusty, sometimes muddy, & our dirt in the SE US contains a good bit of quartz. Regarding the loading applied; I have cracked rollers off the primary chain & pulled a 530 apart once. I also experience a good bit of sprocket wear, getting , at most, 2 seasons out of a countershaft sprocket, and that's pushing it.
Your thoughts?
Mark in SC
Having read your posts regarding heavy chain contributing more to wear than the loads we can apply, and to address the clearance issues, I'm considering thinning my sprockets & changing to 520 chain. Doing so, I'll have clearance enough to use either o-ring or non 0-ring chain. I suspect that the wear issues have a good bit to do with the operating environment as the tracks I ride get pretty dusty, sometimes muddy, & our dirt in the SE US contains a good bit of quartz. Regarding the loading applied; I have cracked rollers off the primary chain & pulled a 530 apart once. I also experience a good bit of sprocket wear, getting , at most, 2 seasons out of a countershaft sprocket, and that's pushing it.
Your thoughts?
Mark in SC
Very simple most 530 chain are heavy with thick sideplates.
Sorry to bang on about iwis but it is the best.
Iwis 530 or 10B-1 has an overall width of 19.5mm narrow than even most 520 chains
and weighs in at0.95kg p/mt which is also lighter than most 520s.
You have to remember most Brit bikes used British Standard chains even the American
version asa50 is wider at 20.5 and will catch somewhere on most Brit classics.
Iwis has distributors worldwide although most wont or cant help you the iwis ref is M106SL.
Andy
Sorry to bang on about iwis but it is the best.
Iwis 530 or 10B-1 has an overall width of 19.5mm narrow than even most 520 chains
and weighs in at0.95kg p/mt which is also lighter than most 520s.
You have to remember most Brit bikes used British Standard chains even the American
version asa50 is wider at 20.5 and will catch somewhere on most Brit classics.
Iwis has distributors worldwide although most wont or cant help you the iwis ref is M106SL.
Andy
When I had a motorcycle shop some 35 years ago, a retired transmission engineer came round with some iwis chain that he wanted me to try out. I did, and found that it was excellent stuff - I sold loads of it over the years I had the place. I'm delighted to hear that it's still about! 
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Suggest some wshould read the book by the Staff of The Motor Cycle 'Speed and How to Obtain it' paying particular attention to the section on chain.
Many years ago speaking to Renold chain people they told me they wished they had a pound for every time a motor cyclist moaned about their chain only to find the motor cyclist was using NON motor cycle chain but cheaper chain intended for other applications..........
Wonder how many have ever read the Renold bumph on how to maintain motor cycle chain???? Rear chains open run should be removed every 1,000 miles, cleaned, dried, boiled up in chain grease, hung up to drain and refitted for example.........Tee Hee.
Many years ago speaking to Renold chain people they told me they wished they had a pound for every time a motor cyclist moaned about their chain only to find the motor cyclist was using NON motor cycle chain but cheaper chain intended for other applications..........
Wonder how many have ever read the Renold bumph on how to maintain motor cycle chain???? Rear chains open run should be removed every 1,000 miles, cleaned, dried, boiled up in chain grease, hung up to drain and refitted for example.........Tee Hee.
Andy, I have read over time a lot of various methods to condition and maintain chains, soaking in various fluids, boiling in others, time intervals for this maintenance, etc. In this Chain Thread already there are two references to these practices from Mark and Mr. Leadbeater.
Do you have an opinion or recommendation on the "Do's and Don'ts" based on current best practices? I imagine it depends on use -motocross v. racing v. road use would be different.
Do you have an opinion or recommendation on the "Do's and Don'ts" based on current best practices? I imagine it depends on use -motocross v. racing v. road use would be different.
Paddy pop in at Shepton Mallet in Feb or the one in March.
As regard to maintenance there is no hard and fast rule except dont use solvent.
My father worked at sales tech Renold and I used to ride from London to St Neots
every week. One chain soaking in diesel engine oil the other on the bike, diesel cos
it has cleaning agents in it, swop every weekend having drained the one in oil and
never even changed the adjusters, good tip for oilers, get an aquarium air hose clamp
and clamp flow right down then use el cheapo diesel engine oil.
The best way to lube and clean is to boil the chain, not O ring, this not only replaces
the lube but cleans it as well. With O ring do nothing as the O rings keep lube out so
anything put on the outside ends up on wheel or road. If you must do anything a
rag with diesel engine wiped over the chain will stop rust.
As for race chains etc many years ago there were some slight differences in design of
the bush and or pins but the material spec was uniform. Nowadays the difference is
basically price or colour. The reason I promote iwis is that the chain has a chromised pin
as standard, usually reserved for cam chain.
As regard to maintenance there is no hard and fast rule except dont use solvent.
My father worked at sales tech Renold and I used to ride from London to St Neots
every week. One chain soaking in diesel engine oil the other on the bike, diesel cos
it has cleaning agents in it, swop every weekend having drained the one in oil and
never even changed the adjusters, good tip for oilers, get an aquarium air hose clamp
and clamp flow right down then use el cheapo diesel engine oil.
The best way to lube and clean is to boil the chain, not O ring, this not only replaces
the lube but cleans it as well. With O ring do nothing as the O rings keep lube out so
anything put on the outside ends up on wheel or road. If you must do anything a
rag with diesel engine wiped over the chain will stop rust.
As for race chains etc many years ago there were some slight differences in design of
the bush and or pins but the material spec was uniform. Nowadays the difference is
basically price or colour. The reason I promote iwis is that the chain has a chromised pin
as standard, usually reserved for cam chain.
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andychain said:
Boil in...??
Boil in chain wax.
Putoline do a good one.
The chain has to get to the same temp as wax then it penetrates the bearing area.
After hang over tin and 90% will drip back in. If your left with blobs of wax on the chain it has not got hot enough.
A chain regularly boiled will literally last for ever or at least a long time (just to keep the trivet counters off my back.
Putoline do a good one.
The chain has to get to the same temp as wax then it penetrates the bearing area.
After hang over tin and 90% will drip back in. If your left with blobs of wax on the chain it has not got hot enough.
A chain regularly boiled will literally last for ever or at least a long time (just to keep the trivet counters off my back.
Andy,
Below is a link to some technical info on the Diamond Chain site. Since you have expert knowledge on the subject perhaps you'd be generous enough to look it over and offer a few words on what the various ASME, ANSI and IBO numerical ratings might equate to in your world of chains. Applications for each of the 3 chain grades is given and I suspect you can surgically sort the wheat from the chaff for us.
http://www.diamondchain.com/diamond-series.php
Below is a link to some technical info on the Diamond Chain site. Since you have expert knowledge on the subject perhaps you'd be generous enough to look it over and offer a few words on what the various ASME, ANSI and IBO numerical ratings might equate to in your world of chains. Applications for each of the 3 chain grades is given and I suspect you can surgically sort the wheat from the chaff for us.
http://www.diamondchain.com/diamond-series.php
A simple product made complicated.
First thing to note is that most established companies such as Renold, iwis and Sedis do not want
to be involved to the low volume motorcycle business. Renold never really produced a "motorcycle"
chain they just made superb industrial chain.
Old Brit bikes and indeed Italian used chain because it was readily available and is the most efficient
way to transmit power.
As to the Diamond, they will also not mention motorcycle but they do have many chains is the range.
The different materials all refer basically to industry with for example stainless and afore mentioned
chromised steel. Stainless is a no no on motorcycles as it is unhardened and chromised, apart from
iwis where it is standard, is used mainly for cam drives, in both cases the cost rises.
There are only really 2 standards ASA (American Standard) and BS (British Standard) there is only one
size, 10B-1 and asa50, that have the same gearing dimensions. But the ASA is wider and can cause
problems when used on some Brit bikes. Importantly these standards DIN 8187 (BS) and DIN8188 (ASA)
are not a measure of quality as such, but a dimension standardization. This means that a 10B-1 connecting
link will fit across all manufacturers using this standard.
As for lubefree or maintenance free chains apart from O ring chains these should again not be used on
motorcycles. Most have a sintered bush and as of yet nobody has found out how to harden one of these.
Going back to diamond it is interesting to put motorcycle in the search feature.
First thing to note is that most established companies such as Renold, iwis and Sedis do not want
to be involved to the low volume motorcycle business. Renold never really produced a "motorcycle"
chain they just made superb industrial chain.
Old Brit bikes and indeed Italian used chain because it was readily available and is the most efficient
way to transmit power.
As to the Diamond, they will also not mention motorcycle but they do have many chains is the range.
The different materials all refer basically to industry with for example stainless and afore mentioned
chromised steel. Stainless is a no no on motorcycles as it is unhardened and chromised, apart from
iwis where it is standard, is used mainly for cam drives, in both cases the cost rises.
There are only really 2 standards ASA (American Standard) and BS (British Standard) there is only one
size, 10B-1 and asa50, that have the same gearing dimensions. But the ASA is wider and can cause
problems when used on some Brit bikes. Importantly these standards DIN 8187 (BS) and DIN8188 (ASA)
are not a measure of quality as such, but a dimension standardization. This means that a 10B-1 connecting
link will fit across all manufacturers using this standard.
As for lubefree or maintenance free chains apart from O ring chains these should again not be used on
motorcycles. Most have a sintered bush and as of yet nobody has found out how to harden one of these.
Going back to diamond it is interesting to put motorcycle in the search feature.
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