Cartridge Emulators

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Stephen Hill

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Don's news about the Lansdowne dampers got me thinking about a couple of Race Tech cartridge emulators I bought at a Norton rally a number of years ago. They sit unused in the original package. I searched this forum for info about installing cartridge emulators in roadholder forks, benefits expected, etc.

I found this site about installing them: http://www.members.shaw.ca/randell/roadholders.html
And this thread slagging them, without providing much in the way of details: ricor-intiminators-invisable-fork-upgrade-t13185.html

Are they worth installing? Do they improve the front forks? If there is a definitive thread on this, I'd be happy if somebody can find the link.
Please note, I am not asking for a comparison with Lansdowne dampers. Just looking to hear from folks who installed cartridge emulators and what difference they made.

Thanks,
Stephen Hill
 
I have used them and they do improve the ride especially at low fork travel speeds and the anti dive, I went one step further and reversed one to give rebound. The trick to get them to work is to seal the of so all the oil goesvthrough the valve, the ID of a Commando stanchion is 26mm so a metric seal works. I have now gone full cartridge and that gives a further improvement with more adjustability. Can't comment ref Lansdowne as never used them and as I had gone cart emulator before they arrived had no need to try.
 
When I rebuilt my forks last year I researched Race Tech products for Commando forks and unfortunately their website indicated that emulators were not available for them. Their website seems to be off line at the moment, so I can't provide a link for that. However I did get springs and set-up info from them, as well as dampening parts from JS Motorsport, but the forks are waiting for the rest of the bike to be finished before getting road tested.
Bill

Edit - here's that link: http://www.racetech.com/ProductSearch/2/Norton/Commando/1966-75
 
I tried them on a BMW airhead.

The emulators are a very much one size fits all product and the original set up information from Racetech was incorrect. Despite many tries I did not get to a setup that gave me forks that were any better than stock and most setups were much worse. Other people on ADV have had better success, but nobody seems to have end d up with forks that handle all conditions well.

If you are an exmotorcross rider and know how to set up forks from scratch, you might up up with something that works, but be prepared to spend lots of time.

I ended up getting Maxton to fit proper cartridge fork internals to my airhead and that works well.
 
Thanks for the responses.
I found one discussion thread where Ludwig stated that unless you could seal the cartridge against the inside of the fork stanchion, the valving won't work. He pretty much trashed the whole idea:
ricor-intiminators-invisable-fork-upgrade-t13185-30.html

Yet this webpage continues to advocate their installation: http://www.members.shaw.ca/randell/roadholders.html

I would have thought by now there would be a stronger consensus on what if any benefits cartridge emulators provide.

Stephen Hill
 
Ludwig was partially right, you do need to seal the outside but they do work. The first item they eliminate is the damping free zone of the first 1/4" movement in the std valve, during this 1/4" movement the valve is moving from compression to rebound position or visa versa, when the valve is moving postion there is no damping, on the cartridge they have an instant acting no return so no damping free zone. Secondly they give digresive damping, at slow fork movement speed the damping is a small 1mm hole giving lots of damping, as the fork deflection speed increases a larger hole is used decreasing the damping, the point at which this happens is adjustable. So they do improve the damping but a proper cartridge setup gives more adjustability.
 
I have emulators ( not Racetech ones but one made by a local suspension specialist) in the Marzocchis on my BMW racer.

They have made a slight improvement but it took a major amount of tweaking to settings. The original settings from the Melbourne based suspension specialist were miles out and initially the forks were no better than standard.
Essentially emulators have two methods of controlling compression damping so you can have hard damping to control fork dive under braking and soft damping to smooth out high speed bumps. I didn't find it easy to find a decent setting and ended up buying different emulator springs and I'm still not entirely happy with them.

It seems to me that emulators can improve the ride, but only if you're prepared to spend plenty of time setting them up ( not easy because you have to remove the fork spring to adjust them) and the claim that they can get a modern suspension performance from an old damper rod fork is, IMHO , rubbish.
 
I have been running Emulators and Raceteck springs on my Triumph Thruxton for over3 years now, what a big diffrents it has made to the stock set up, a lot better handling and handles the bumps great but of course you have to set up the rear shocks with better shocks I was running with Gazi shockes but had a few problems with them and now have put Ikons on but am still getting them set up for my riding style.
I ordered my Raceteck set up through my Triumph dealer as the bike was still on warranty at the time and got them to install them, I was talking to the young meckinic and he set them up for my weight etc and he knew his suspenstion stuff, I push my Triumph to its limits every time I ride it in the twisties.
As for my Norton I have been running the Lansdown set up for about 5 years now, but Emulators will improve the front end by themselfs but they need to be set up right first but they work better with the right springs for your weight etc.

Ashley
 
I attended a Racetech seminar at Barber year before last and I asked him about a kit for Commando. He said they had nothing for us.
Maybe it's because they realized that their kit doesn't work on our forks.
Jaydee
 
I think as is shown in some of the replies that Emulators are an approach that varies a great deal in implementation.

This link is to Sports Motorcycles, now in New Zealand, but that same Sports Motorcycles that was involved with Mike Hailwood. All that means to me is that the attantion to detail is likely to be good.

http://sportsvalve.com/sports-valve/sports-valves/

The point is that this is perhaps the only emulator product that attempts to have rebound damping and compression damping. The way to do that, unlike other emulator produts, is by offering a specific fit to the actual fork legs you are using. Others simply depend on the given emulator being a small enough ID to actually go into your fork.

I totally buy into the comments that have been made earlier that emulators take a lot of setting up, with variable results.

As with most things, the first thing is to get the best available product, and in emulators the sportsvalve looks like a better 'product' due to the attention to detail in the fit. I have considered them for a Yamaha fork leg application, but I am still unsure of the value.

But with Lansdowne dampers becoming available again for Roadholders, and offering a far more proven solution, emulators (or expensive cartridges) are unlikely to be your best solution.
 
The biggest gain I got going from emulator to modern cartridge was the low speed damping, on the emulator its a fixed hole, you can change the size or add new holes but that is still fixed when riding and experimentation takes a long time plus if you go too large you have to make a new part. With the modern cartridge you can change this low speed damping port size with the adjustable needle.
 
Part of the puzzle for me is how to create a seal between the cartridge emulator body and the inside bore of the fork stanchion. The generic instructions on the Race Tech website suggest you just drop the cartridge on top of the damper tube, but this assumes a seal between the damper tube and the inside of the fork stanchion, as is common on most Japanese forks of the era.

On stock Norton forks there is no such seal. So you would need to establish a seal between the damper tube and the stanchion, or the emulator body and the stanchion. I'd be interested in hearing how folks created this seal when they installed the cartridge emulators.

Stephen Hill
 
The ID of the Norton Stanchion is 26mm and conveniently smooth, so I took a 26mm OD garter seal and removed the id and put it over the top of the damper tube, the emulator just fitted on top sitting on the rubber of the seal. The downside is the stiction you get as the seal slides up and down inside the stanchion but this drops a lot within 10 to 15 miles. An O ring on the OD of the emulator lasts a few 100 yards before being twisted out of the groove you get by unscrewing the emulator partially apart so not worth trying.
 
I have used Race Tech emulators in Yamaha RD350 and 400 forks and they have improved things considerably. They do take some time and patience to set up, I have found that out of the box, the damping was too stiff and the shim stack needed to be loosened. New springs were in order as well, trying to get the emulators to work with the saggy old springs would have been an exercise in futility. The type of emulators I used had a nylon ring around them that worked like a piston ring to seal them against the inside of the fork.

As for using emulators in my Commando's forks, I'd personally not bother - the stock forks with good quality fork oil work very well for my riding style.
 
Stephen Hill said:
Part of the puzzle for me is how to create a seal between the cartridge emulator body and the inside bore of the fork stanchion. The generic instructions on the Race Tech website suggest you just drop the cartridge on top of the damper tube, but this assumes a seal between the damper tube and the inside of the fork stanchion, as is common on most Japanese forks of the era.

On stock Norton forks there is no such seal. So you would need to establish a seal between the damper tube and the stanchion, or the emulator body and the stanchion. I'd be interested in hearing how folks created this seal when they installed the cartridge emulators.

Stephen Hill
Click to expand...

Well that is exactly what the Sports Valve emulator is doing for you! Others don't.....
 
Very interesting, never heard of the Sports Valve before. Looks similar to the Race Tech emulator, only it has a seal around the outside, which in theory should address the problem of ensuring oil flows through the emulator.

Another significant difference is the Sports Valve claims rebound and compression damping, while the Race Tech emulator only claims compression damping.
More on the Sports Valve here: http://sportsvalve.com/blog/tag/sports+valve

Anybody installed the Sports Valve in Commando forks??

Stephen Hill
 
I put Race Tech emulators (and sprngs based on their calculator) on my SV650 and was pleased that they improved brake dive and softened response to small sharp bumps . i used The Settings recommended in the instructions and never felt the need to change them ,
 
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