Can a Norton engine run without vibration?

WEAL Norton said:

Are your pistons 170 gr bare - no rings, clips and pin? How much are they complete ready to install? How heavy are your rods? I once rebalanced my 850 Commando to 68% dry and it was worse vibrating until it went above 4500 - then it was slightly better than stock.
Look forward to your weight numbers - I want to calculate an idea and need some real numbers of lightweight stuff.

Regards

Hartmut

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750 pistons weigh 185 grams each bare. 850 pistons weigh about 205 grams bare. Undermilling brings them down the 750 pistons to 170. I used to offer the extra lightening for an extra $100 but I had no takers. The 750 pin is 51 grams. The 850 pin is 58 grams. The rod small end (the one that causes vibration) is 105 grams.

All the weight & balance specs are at:

http://www.jsmotorsport.com/technical_balance.asp

The theory used to be longitudinal vibration was less discernable than vertical , solid mounted ,
Also perhaps its bettter damped , for & aft.As most of the mass of the machine is fore & aft .

Differant frames have differant resonances / harmonics . Hence some ammplify shake at varying rpms .
gets to the damping , the seperate engine is more removed , a unitary , being one mass ,has the whole power unit
transmitting the vibration . = harshness .
The Non Unit , the centre of its about the crankshaft , give or take .

Gee , I thought in this tecnological E lictrical age , a high speed camera aimed at a spot , or infa red at graph grid ,
would record osscilations . A strobe would even be some use .

Then we get tecnical , with ' load paths ' , and the plot thickens . :? :wink:

Seeing you cant get rid of it , utiliseing it to maximum advantage would be a acceptable design course . :shock:

On my Norton's I really don't seem to have much vibration at all, at idle they seem to have a little. But that's compared to my Buell's that almost bounce the front tire at idle. I like the fact that they have a heart beat, I really don't think the Norton's have a problem. In fact they are pretty smooth compared to other 750 twins. If ya want smooth get a Gold Wing. :wink:

Hortons Norton said:

If ya want smooth get a Gold Wing. :wink:

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I'll do that when I fall off my perch. I had a CB450 and got rid of it as fast as I could.

Dave
69S

A 500 lb flywheel would smooth it right out . :?

Matt Spencer said:

A 500 lb flywheel would smooth it right out . :?

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So would a steam roller.

Hortons Norton said:

I like the fact that they have a heart beat, I really don't think the Norton's have a problem. In fact they are pretty smooth compared to other 750 twins. If ya want smooth get a Gold Wing. :wink:

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I like my bike just fine too. I went for a ride today on my VFR and I noticed that a lot of what comes across as vibration on the Norton are actually power pulses, feels kinda nice at low rpm's and then it's unnoticeable at higher rev's. It would be good though to get rid of some of the reciprocating weight for vibration, but also to free up some power and not feel guilty about flogging it.

bwolfie said:

hobot said:

Here's one that has vibration-less cycle potential. Of course Norton had the Wankle type rotary already.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bny77SEefQ&feature=related[/video]

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Here is another idea that has become stilborn.
http://www.pivotalengine.com/index-2.html

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The pivotal engine did (dose?) actually work reasonably well, it just needs some 'engineering' thrown at it and it would be a viable design, that said I cant see any thing about it that has any significant benefits over any current engine design. They argue that the water cooled piston is perfect for hydrogen, this may be so but then the wankle has a nice long combustion chamber which works well for H2 as well as the fact that the H2 can be injected into the chamber after the intake port has closed early in the compression phase, the apex seal is past the injector before combustion. This is a pretty big safety issue, in a piston engine it is very hard to trap all combustibles in the cylinder.

The Norton rotary really could have been a good engine, they were like riding an electric motor...

The you tube engine will have the same problems as all the wobble yoke/swash plate engines before it, bearings/contact stress.

Yes good points on this engines pecking order but not related to its innate smooth factor for a piston engine. Its a variation of other swash plate engines and pumps. There's reasons we don't see many Wankles nowadays, more than I know to list ok.

I've had neuropathy from both direct vibration to hands and by neck injury, no more thank you, but a Princess on the Pea sensitive to annoying vibration of various frequencies and only like to spend longer than 30 min, on a good C'do.
I could not detect bike source vibration on my trimmed down iso's tri-linked Peel. I could not detect bike source vibration on my trimmed down iso's tri-linked Peel. I could not detect bike source vibration on my trimmed down iso's tri-linked Peel. Only tire patch behavior vibration, not wind nor nuance road texture even on THE Gravel. So I know what works for me on smoothness. Then another factor appears when all the vibration crap is filtered/dampered/absorbed out, the power pulse/tire resonance/grip effects become clearer and definitely more grippy to launch, climb or lean on.

I sense its something to do with both iso's in line with tire trust and the horizontal component of engine orbital. Reports show that iso's can isolate a range of BF's above factory, so experiments planned to explore sense of BF with the crankshaft Ken Canaga rescued by making removable plugs. Don't know if accessable via sump plug but Peel is made to take apart and put back w/o strain.

Again I can't ever get rear link's lack of any sensation in my bony hands out of my mind so suggest the links somehow interact with power unit vibration more than just taming flex/rebound on road loads. I didn't get full bike-internal vibration disappearing act with just the top and front links alone, but did with just the rear alone. The other two took out remains of external source vibration. hm.

Smart phones and game thingies have apps for vibration sensing that adapt to lathes and other stuff so if no one beats me to it, that's on list to do's and pass around for scope of pecking order. As mentioned perfect round orbital may not be best deal on C'dos.








C

rpatton said:

Hortons Norton said:

I like the fact that they have a heart beat, I really don't think the Norton's have a problem. In fact they are pretty smooth compared to other 750 twins. If ya want smooth get a Gold Wing. :wink:

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I like my bike just fine too. I went for a ride today on my VFR and I noticed that a lot of what comes across as vibration on the Norton are actually power pulses, feels kinda nice at low rpm's and then it's unnoticeable at higher rev's. It would be good though to get rid of some of the reciprocating weight for vibration, but also to free up some power and not feel guilty about flogging it.

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Quote; "I really don't think Norton's have a problem"
I think Norton vibes cause many unseen and seen problems, the fact they shake cause's many issues.
Carb wear, due to the micro frictional scuffing, well that's what i call it.
the fractures of parts due to vibes and things falling off.. vibes are going to cause imbrittlement ...so the statement regarding vibration,well read the posts on this forum regarding the shake......in 1840 someone balanced a single flywheel on a steam engine to prevent it self distructing, Norton used the same methods 140 years later!

Would any one even think about building a 360 degree twin today...and sell it. claiming "white-finger" is all part of the charm..i dont think so :!:

Comnoz, have you ever thought about having a Norton Camp? A week of hands on lessons, lectures, arguments and then on the last day, lots of beer and a road trip to CNW to leave fingerprints on everything!

I'm thinking you could sell it.

And if Jim plays his cards right he could use those paying people to do work for him disguised a "learning" ala. tom sawyer and the fence. As for the CNW trip and fingerprints, i'm sure Matt dosn't have to clean them, just some poor grunt will, I know my first MC job was the grunt cleaning fingerprints off of bikes.

I will be the first one to sign up for the camp if I get a guarantee that Hobot, Carbonfiber and Mattt Spencer will be there, that alone will be worth the price of admission.

john robert bould said:

rpatton said:

Hortons Norton said:

I like the fact that they on a steam engine to prevent it self distructing, Norton used the same methods 140 years later!

Would any one even think about building a 360 degree twin today...and sell it. claiming "white-finger" is all part of the charm..i dont think so :!:

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A 360 degree twin, not since BMW"s 800. Jim [Yeah I know- it's balanced with a lever]

rvich said:

Comnoz, have you ever thought about having a Norton Camp? A week of hands on lessons, lectures, arguments and then on the last day, lots of beer and a road trip to CNW to leave fingerprints on everything!

I'm thinking you could sell it.

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Ha- JC's Norton camp- I like the part about the beer and the fingerprints.

john robert bould said:

Would any one even think about building a 360 degree twin today...and sell it.

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Yes, because of other benefits such as less torsional vibration:




Tim

The balancer for the 800 BMW shown above was first used on the Ducati mono where they removed a cylinder from their 90 deg watercooled twin and increased the bore for a single. They started with a just short dummy piston without cylinder head but it had too much friction and robbed too much HP. Then they came up with the lever. It worked great but they dropped the project. Since then BMW took advantage of the design and rotated the balance lever from 90 deg to 180.

Maybe first used on a motorcycle by Ducati. Lever balancers were used on steam engines and threshing machines in the 19th century. Jim

jseng1 said:

The balancer for the 800 BMW shown above was first used on the Ducati mono where they removed a cylinder .....

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BMW actually "took advantage" of a Volkswagen patent as soon as that expired. Like they did with the Hossack and Saxon FFE etc.. There is very little point in claiming who came up with any kind of idea first as probably most of the really clever ideas have been thought off yet - and it is especially irrelevant as the question raised was who dare to sell a P-twin in modern times. :wink:


Tim

Actually I think the original question was can a Norton be without vibration- are you still there Dog.

comnoz said:

Actually I think the original question was can a Norton be without vibration- are you still there Dog.

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Actually Norton 'engine'. Yes, I think I've gotten my fill. Thanks to all, it's been informative, but I don't understand most of it, just a smattering, but it's been entertaining and I appreciate all the input, not that I'm going to try to make my engine vibration free.

Dave
69S