Build numbers

EstuaryBoy said:
Mind you, might be relevant to any 'guesstimate' that there was industrial unrest towards the end of Commando production which could/would/might throw any averages out the window??
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"Averages" are difficult because production numbers changed significantly between early and late production and depend on the start and finish dates as there were no model years only what appear to be the beginning of calendar year production recorded by Roy Bacon and endorsed by the NOC.

For instance, 850 Mk3 began from 325001 and ended at 336537 (according to AN, 336538 according to the NOC and 336539 if the John Pedley presentation bike is included) so total production of 11,537+ 850 Mk3s if all serial numbers were used. Approximately 10,000 built before NVT went into receivership plus another 1,500 or so afterwards.

However, 1968, '69 and '70 production numbers not only didn't come anywhere close to that figure but also included other Norton models (P11A Ranger, Mercury).
There was sales resistance to the styling of what later became known as the Fastback model resulting in the introduction of the 'R' and 'S' types in early '69 neither of which were particularly successful either and it was only the introduction of the Roadster when Commando production really got going.
 
' "Averages" are difficult ' That was my point entirely, way too many variables to add to the pot. :) Like Asimov's Darwinian pool table and the Bank's past interest rates the picture looking back won't always match the one looking forward.

Though on paper, on average, that suggests the possibility that the Mk3 could have been the largest production run of all???
 
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EstuaryBoy said:
On paper, on average, that suggests the possibility that the Mk3 could have been the largest production run of all???
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Depends on how you look at it, for instance, going by serial numbers if all Mk2s and Mk2As were regarded as "1974" production then they would be the largest run, however, if considered to be two different models then probably not.
 
atmain said:
Does anyone have the figures of how many Commandos were built?
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I have a couple web pages on my site trying, in part, to figure that out. Certainly not authoritative but here's what I currently think:

750:
1968-1971 No more than 24,598
1972-1973 No more than 30,935. Most likely, this number is around 4,000 high as they appear to have skipped that many when moving to 200001 for the MKIV 750. It appears that maybe 1000 750s in the 235xxx serial range were also produced.

850 Mk1/1A/2/2A
No more than 21,000 but when they went to 325001 (MKIII) I think they skipped at as many as 4,000 numbers. 320774 and 325056 were less than 3 months apart. I really would like info on any bikes between that range!

850 MK3
No more than 11,527 based on the first and last number. IMHO, it is probable that not all numbers were used - at least for sale.

Part of the problem is how many were for race, demo, testing, replacement engines, etc. and were they in the normal serial number ranges.

https://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/Norton/CommandoSurvey.aspx
https://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/Norton/CommandoID.aspx
 
marshg246 said:
1972-1973 No more than 30,935. Most likely, this number is around 4,000 high as they appear to have skipped that many when moving to 200001 for the MKIV 750.
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Although I have similar numbers for other 'years', I don't understand how you've arrived at a figure of 30,935 (or even 4,000 less) for '72 - '73 as I make it around 16,000?

marshg246 said:
It appears that maybe 1000 750s in the 235xxx serial range were also produced.
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750s up to 235500, after that, there only appear to be a few '235' 850s and short-stroke engines.
 
Seems high to me too, but according the Mick Duckworth's book that AN sells:

MKIV: Starts with 200001 (where does MKIV end?)
MKV: 219999 - 230935

In my survey I have 29 bikes between 235017 and 235713. So, 235xxx could be 1000, but I didn't know about them until you told me a couple of years ago and I've been trying to figure them out since.

I've seen a few records from 72 that showed 50-60 per day. For instance, 15 Feb 72, they built 56. At around 220 workdays a year and considering that 850s were being built in 73 as well, I'm guessing that 24,200-# of 850s for 72/73 is a more likely number but even that is way above what you think. Trust me, I'm guessing that you're right, I just don't know why.

And, you know I know that the years really mess-up any of these discussions
 
marshg246 said:
MKIV: Starts with 200001 (where does MKIV end?)
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Somewhere around 212550 or at least doesn't seem to go as far as 213xxx, however, MkV specification began from 212278* (but whether those from 212278 can be regarded as 750 MkV or still MkIV is debatable) so possibly reduces the MkIV numbers by around 7,000 as they don't seem to reach anywhere close to 219999.
I was informed some years ago by J Dunn of the NOC that the official position at that time was that the 750 MkV began from 220000.
So perhaps those 750s from 212278 should be considered as MkIV Series II, or Mk4.5 as there's no 1/2 in Roman numerals.

*http://www.classicbike.biz/Norton/Parts/1970s/Commando_Parts_73-74.pdf
"Also includes 750 models from engine number 212278"

marshg246 said:
MKV: 219999 - 230935
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That seems to have been just under 2,000 '22' series, not 10,000, (possibly ending at 221644), especially at a time when the factory was producing '230', '235' series and switching over to 850 production so the factory simply couldn't have made an additional 8,000 '22' series bikes in such a short time in my opinion
If they had then we would see many more '22' series examples, so that would knock approximately 8,000 off your MkV numbers.
 
L.A.B. said:
Somewhere around 212550 or at least doesn't seem to go as far as 213xxx, however, MkV specification began from 212278* (but whether those from 212278 can be regarded as 750 MkV or still MkIV is debatable) so possibly reduces the MkIV numbers by around 7,000 as they don't seem to reach anywhere close to 219999.
I was informed some years ago by J Dunn of the NOC that the official position at that time was that the 750 MkV began from 220000.
So perhaps those 750s from 212278 should be considered as MkIV Series II, or Mk4.5 as there's no 1/2 in Roman numerals.

*http://www.classicbike.biz/Norton/Parts/1970s/Commando_Parts_73-74.pdf
"Also includes 750 models from engine number 212278"



That seems to have been just under 2,000 '22' series, not 10,000, (possibly ending at 221644), especially at a time when the factory was producing '230', '235' series and switching over to 850 production so the factory simply couldn't have made an additional 8,000 '22' series bikes in such a short time in my opinion
If they had then we would see many more '22' series examples, so that would knock approximately 8,000 off your MkV numbers.
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All makes sense - I'll update my pages. Keep in mind that I was listing maximums and hoping for people to do just what you did.

The 235xxx are still confusing - do you think the numbers were randomly used or sequentially used? Seems like if sequentially there were many more than you thought.

I just hope people will keep giving me info on their bikes and images of the factory records from AN. On the older records, AN copies the page but hides all but the bike you paying for. I can usually tell at least how many were made that day. I order the record for every bike I build, but it's too expensive to order extras since they insist on providing a document with the info.
 
marshg246 said:
The 235xxx are still confusing - do you think the numbers were randomly used or sequentially used? Seems like if sequentially there were many more than you thought.
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It appears sequential up to about 235500 as the several known 235 serial numbers up to 235500 are mainly 750 Hi-Riders and some Roadsters (with a drum front brake and 30mm inlet ports and carbs?).
From approximately 235500 they seem to be mainly '235' 850s and short-stroke engines but not as many.
Edit: The 235 series 850s I believe were Mk2 specification so built some months later than the '235' 750s.
 
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