Blue metalflake 850s again

And this is the 1973 brochure, with a NOS sidecover for comparison.

This is a darker metallic blue than the previous advertising pic, my sidecover is just not that pale metallic blue at all....

Rohan said:

What is said to be an original paint 1973 850, on evilbay.

Is this what the brochure calls Fireflake Blue, or the Pacific Blue that is also listed.

P.S.
Anyone have the color sheet that came with the 1973 brochure, that shows the colors available ?

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I worked for a Norton Dealer in 1973. Even rode with him to Berliner to pick up his first allocation three Nortons when he first signed up with them. They were all 750's..... One Black, One Yellow and One Royal Fireflake Blue, the blue one still sits in my garage. My job was to take them out of the crate, clean off the cosmolene, put them together and kick them to life.

So there is no doubt, in my mind, that Fireflake Blue is the color you show in your photo, NOT Pacific blue.

L.A.B. said:

Fireflake in my opinion is not exactly what could be described as metallic.

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Why not ??? ??? ???

Is there some subtle difference between metalflake and metallic paints ?
The size of the metallic particles, perchance ?

This NOS sidecover I have has a blue basecoat on the inside, with a few stray metallic particles scattered around, and the outside has a heavy coat of metallic particles sprayed onto it, with a heavy coat of clear. Whether the particles were in the clearcoat, or clear was sprayed over the top is a good question.

If thats not metallic paint, I don't know what is - or are we splitting hairs over metalflake and metallic paints ??

steveyacht said:

I worked for a Norton Dealer in 1973. Even rode with him to Berliner to pick up his first allocation three Nortons when he first signed up with them. They were all 750's..... One Black, One Yellow and One Royal Fireflake Blue, the blue one still sits in my garage. My job was to take them out of the crate, clean off the cosmolene, put them together and kick them to life.

So there is no doubt, in my mind, that Fireflake Blue is the color you show in your photo, NOT Pacific blue.

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You mention Fireflake Blue, and Fireflake Royal Blue.
(And Pacific Blue).

Are you making a distinction between them, or lumping them together ??!
What color is your present bike, the one in your sign-on pic ?

Cheers.

Rohan said:

L.A.B. said:

Fireflake in my opinion is not exactly what could be described as metallic.

Click to expand...

Why not ??? ??? ???

Is there some subtle difference between metalflake and metallic paints ?
The size of the metallic particles, perchance ?

Click to expand...

The flakes in "Flake" paint are usually the coloured element and applied with clear laquer and re-coated with more layers of clear laquer, unlike metallic paint where metallic particles and coloured pigment is applied together, and yes, metalic paints usually contain a much finer metallic element than "Flake".

http://www.specialistpaints.com/products/metal-flake

Royal Blue Flake

Colored flakes are quite a modern invention. ?
I bought some stuff like that recently, it was called sparkle.
Not available in 1973.
Bought some only a few years ago, the color washed off when you added thinner !!

Then (1973 etc) they used a color basecoat (blue, for blue, obviously), with what look like aluminium flakes. And a clearcoat with/over the top.
And thats how this NOS blue sidecover is done (why could you buy spare sidecovers with and without pinstripes and decals...??)

There's a world of difference between metallic paint and metalflake.
For one, as already shown, the flakes are dry and only provide a solid colour when they build up enough to obscure the base layer, which is why they're such a pig to do.

Metallic paint is about seventy times easier to do. Candy apples are clear tints applied over a (typically) metallic bascoat.

I've done them all and having done a bit of research on correct colours ( the Fireflake Blue on my 850 got done 3 times before I was content with it), I would say that the bike in the first photo is Fireflake Blue, albeit a pale version - maybe batch differences or photographic colour saturation differences?
The way the colour photographs takes some explaining, and is beyond be I'm afraid, and it NEVER looks the same in reality.
My copy of the Norton Brochure shows the blue to be quite dark, but it evidently isn't when compared with Rohan's original.



Here's a Genuine NOS 'S' sidepanel next to my best endeavours. I may want to do this for a living someday, so please be kind

Rohan said:

Colored flakes are quite a modern invention. ?

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I seem to remember a mate of mine (who was a metal flake maniac) using coloured flake back in the early 80's.

Andy,
Maybe you've seen this before. A pic of the original gel coat on my FFBlue S. A spot under the rubber washer, so no effects of light, etc. It appears to have light blue flecks, black flecks, and maybe a base blue, and of course the thick gel coat, but I noticed when I sanded the gel coat, the colour changed right away. It's impossible to restore without a complete re-do.

I had ruined it by painting it black in the late 70's, but I think the decals and gel coat were getting pretty bad by then anyhow.



Dave
69S

This thread is amazing...

First off, it does no good to look at a photo and try to say whether or not the paint in it is lighter or darker than another photo. Tricks of light, type of film, filters used and process of exposure (remember when cameras actually used film) all have an impact. Then the brochures went to a print shop. Now we are viewing these items on computer screens that all have their own settings that may also slightly affect the way a color looks.

If you can put two NOS pieces side by side and show a different shade then maybe we are getting somewhere.

The 1973 Interstate has not necessarily been repainted. The 750s came with a wide stripe and it looks stock. Is it too light? See the above as it is still a photo.

There has been commentary also about the process of using metal flake in paint. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the same painter might lay down more metal in one paint job than another. This would result in that paint looking lighter in color when photographed. You would have to examine it closely to see whether the base coat was the same.

So unless someone comes up with a color card showing different shades of blue for a single year...I am inclined to think that some different names where used to describe the same paint. Convince me otherwise!

Russ

rvich said:

Convince me otherwise!

Russ

Click to expand...

Can I register a Fail here?

:mrgreen:

B+Bogus said:

rvich said:

Convince me otherwise!

Russ

Click to expand...

Can I register a Fail here?

:mrgreen:

Click to expand...

As in your color match? Heck I dunno! I have a paint chip off my 850 tank I can send you if you want to look at it! I saved it for just such an occasion.

Russ

Part of the problem here is that in the Norton brochures, in other stuff and in folks discussing it the paint names being mentioned are Fireflake Blue, Fireflake Royal Blue, and Pacific Blue.

Until we find that elusive paint color sheet, these could well be 3 different colors.

As for 850 paints being metalflake rather than metallic paint - well, I'm inclined to think that my NOS sidecover is simply metallic paint, albeit with fairly large flakes.

I've been watching Norton blue colors for quite some years - always wanted that pale blue 850 scheme - but mostly keep coming across darker versions. But have seen several of the lighter scheme bikes locally.

L.A.B. said:

Rohan said:

Colored flakes are quite a modern invention. ?

Click to expand...

I seem to remember a mate of mine (who was a metal flake maniac) using coloured flake back in the early 80's.

Click to expand...

As LAB would reply (scornfully) to this comment, 1970s bikes weren't painted in the 1980s.

Commandos sure didn't use it, anyway... ??

No-one else has come forward with an example of color in the gelcoat, so it will be interesting to see if that multi-color is original or something later.

Can gelcoat colors be repaired later, if something happens to them (accident damage, etc ?).

DogT said:

Andy,
Maybe you've seen this before. A pic of the original gel coat on my FFBlue S. A spot under the rubber washer, so no effects of light, etc. It appears to have light blue flecks, black flecks, and maybe a base blue, and of course the thick gel coat, but I noticed when I sanded the gel coat, the colour changed right away. It's impossible to restore without a complete re-do.

I had ruined it by painting it black in the late 70's, but I think the decals and gel coat were getting pretty bad by then anyhow.


Dave
69S

Click to expand...

If some of those tanks were made in Italy , were they painted in Italy , with italian Paint .

Pacifics obviously the pale Lagoon shade ! :lol:

Adriatic Blue? It can be real nice along the Dolomites and even in Trieste. I remember, I was there in 1945, but only 2 years old. But those beach memories stick.

Dave
69S

Hey Rohan,
Any chance of a photo of the inside of your NOS side cover? The covers on my 850 were light to medium blue with no metal flake. Sadly I didn't photo them.

Russ

I'll try for a better photo, in daylight, probably saturday...
(thats the flash reflection in the middle)

P.S. Why ??

Just curious about the inside color. That looks like the same as my 850 covers did when I got the bike. When I stripped them it seemed that this was the base coat for the metal flake (which was definitely silver). I wish now I had worked on finding a color match for that paint for persons who were trying to duplicate it. It looked to me as though there was the base coat blue, then a candy blue with the silver metal flake over it. I was rather surprised that the base coat wasn't a little more brilliant to start.

Russ