Atlas frame number?

Please can I ask for your thoughts and advice concerning the following?

I recently purchased a non-matching numbers project bike. According to the numbers, the engine is a 1964 Atlas and I believe it also has a Norton Atlas slimline frame.

It was a little difficult to read the frame number, but it was possible by looking from a certain angle or with a flashlight positioned in just the right place. The numbers that my friends and I read also agrees with the frame number on the title that I got with the bike.

It reads 20 horizontally and then 1021** vertically.

So I though everything was all good, until I checked to see what year the frame is.
I read that the Atlas frame was stamped 20 (great!) but the very first Atlas serial number began with 108000.

Thinking that I might have read the number and the title is wrong, I just applied paint stripper to the thick coats of paint on the frame and then carefully scraped off the paint to reveal a very clearly and consistently stamped frame number that is exactly the same as the number I thought it was.

So please can you offer any advice as to how this number is lower than the first Atlas number? I'm happy to send more pics if needed.
Cheers
Mike

Where are you getting that 'first' Atlas number from ?
Some of the lists around of Norton details are terribly misleading or inaccurate, we've noted here.
The USA got Atlas's for several years before the UK did, which has also caused many misunderstandings.

In some lists, that number would be considered a 1962 model year, and the first Atlas's appeared in 1962,
so it certainly is not impossible for those numbers to be perfectly valid for an Atlas.
It likely would have been sent to the USA that early.

Is your engine number in the 1964 range, to give that 1964 date ?

We look forward to seeing more details of your resto, there are a number of Atlas's that have been featured here, ranging from stock to mild to less-mild customs....

Rohan said:

The USA got Atlas's for several years before the UK did, which has also caused many misunderstandings.

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Not exactly "several" years.

The official press launch of the "export only" Atlas was on the 6th March 1962 according to Mick Walker's book 'Norton Dominator'.

According to Roy Bacon's 'Norton Twin Restoration': "Feb. 1964 108000 first UK Atlas"

According to NOC records, my Atlas with serial number 1028xx left the factory May 1962 destined for the USA, and was eventually titled as a 1963.

Slick

Thank you all very much indeed for your comments and advice. I really appreciate it. I didn't make the connection to the 108000 number being the first Atlas in Britain.

I thought you might like to see some clips that I have been taking, from when I got the bike at the Quincy rally to last night. I'm having a great time and I may need to ask more questions as I learn more

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgDzKiI-i6nYTzxrLolDHnSxPiWRXeiOd

Rohan said:

Is your engine number in the 1964 range, to give that 1964 date ?

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Sorry, forgot to mention, the engine number is: 20/1183** /P
So I believe that it is a 1964 Atlas 750cc?

Cheers
Mike

Mike T said:

Rohan said:

Is your engine number in the 1964 range, to give that 1964 date ?

Click to expand...

Sorry, forgot to mention, the engine number is: 20/1183** /P
So I believe that it is a 1964 Atlas 750cc?

Cheers
Mike

Click to expand...

That would make it a late 1966 engine in a 1962 frame. Originally the engine would have had Monobloc carbs along with the K2F magneto.

triumph2 said:

That would make it a late 1966 engine in a 1962 frame. Originally the enginbe would have had Monobloc carbs along with the K2F magneto.

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Mike, I told you that Mikuni wasn't original! :mrgreen: :wink:

triumph2 said:

That would make it a late 1966 engine in a 1962 frame. Originally the engine would have had Monobloc carbs along with the K2F magneto.

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Thanks very much triumph2 for dating the engine.
A previous owner has added a 2-into-1 carb manifold to fit the Mikuni. I'll see what it looks like when I take it apart to clean it in the Ultrasonic cleaner. Thankfully the K2F Mag is still fitted, but I understand it may have been the cause of the bike being parked up, so I'll need to check it.

swooshdave said:

Mike, I told you that Mikuni wasn't original! :mrgreen: :wink:

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Thank you Dave!

The First time the Atlas appeared it was for export only that year, the British market didn’t get them till the following year as with the 650ss.

BTY unless I am completely wrong the mag should be a K2 F C- the C for competition.

Bernhard said:

The First time the Atlas appeared it was for export only that year, the British market didn’t get them till the following year as with the 650ss.

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As LAB details earlier, it was a whisker short of 2 years that the US got Atlas production before the UK.

This in fact would be all of the Atlas production for (a short) 1962, all of the 1963 Atlas production, and some months of 1964 production. This would be the model that had 7" fork centres Bernhard. !

Actually, do we know when production for 1962 Atlas's actually started ? - maybe from the factory records ?
If that March 62 announcement was in the US, by Berliners, did they already have stock in hand to show - or sell ?
Or just take orders for something that had yet to be built ?

Rohan said:

Bernhard said:

The First time the Atlas appeared it was for export only that year, the British market didn’t get them till the following year as with the 650ss.

Click to expand...

As LAB details earlier, it was a whisker short of 2 years that the US got Atlas production before the UK.
This in fact would be all of the Atlas production for (a short) 1962, all of the 1963 Atlas production, and some months of 1964 production. This would be the model that had 7" fork centres Bernhard. !
Actually, do we know when production for 1962 Atlas's actually started ? - maybe from the factory records ?
If that March 62 announcement was in the US, by Berliners, did they already have stock in hand to show - or sell ?
Or just take orders for something that had yet to be built ?

Click to expand...

Your comment is interesting as this is why no one in the UK outside the factory had seen an early Atlas as all were exported the first year or so of production, even Roy Bacon in his book of the Norton Twins mentioned this, so the exclusive Atlas with its fork yolks of 7 inch would not be seen at all in the UK unless it had been re imported.
As someone else on this website mentioned that Norton would not change anything unless they had to, why where the fork yolks changed to 7 3/8 inch in the middle of the production run of the Atlas life :?:
Or will it forever remain a mystery that is long forgotten :?:

Bernhard said:

why where the fork yolks changed to 7 3/8 inch in the middle of the production run of the Atlas life :?:
Or will it forever remain a mystery that is long forgotten :?:

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I don't believe it's ever been much of a mystery, the forks/yokes (not 'yolks') were widened to allow wider section tyres to be fitted.

Roy Bacon says this on p.56 of 'Norton Twins' (Niton): "...for 1964.....The machines all received changes to the forks to widen the leg spacing to allow a fat tyre to be fitted if required...."

Mike T said:

Please can I ask for your thoughts and advice concerning the following?

I recently purchased a non-matching numbers project bike. According to the numbers, the engine is a 1964 Atlas and I believe it also has a Norton Atlas slimline frame.

It was a little difficult to read the frame number, but it was possible by looking from a certain angle or with a flashlight positioned in just the right place. The numbers that my friends and I read also agrees with the frame number on the title that I got with the bike.

It reads 20 horizontally and then 1021** vertically.

So I though everything was all good, until I checked to see what year the frame is.
I read that the Atlas frame was stamped 20 (great!) but the very first Atlas serial number began with 108000.

Thinking that I might have read the number and the title is wrong, I just applied paint stripper to the thick coats of paint on the frame and then carefully scraped off the paint to reveal a very clearly and consistently stamped frame number that is exactly the same as the number I thought it was.

So please can you offer any advice as to how this number is lower than the first Atlas number? I'm happy to send more pics if needed.
Cheers
Mike

Click to expand...

Well this is interesting bike I put it back to a Standard machine there very rare now the First Atlas was built on April 20th 1962 so this one not that far of being one of the first few too too built and has a Standard motorcycle you find you get more riding pleasure the best bar are the 5 inch rase bars witch some of these bikes had there had a Manxman 650 tank on the first few then went too 3./12 gallon tank your tank is a late type left hand filler cap tank made after 1964 you get tank badges from RGM Motors UK and All the Parts YOU need has Well there Good GUYs to know and Remember there are two oil pumps the 3 start early pump and the later 6 start oil pump its very important too get the right one and the right oiling set up , has the Shell bearings Are Different early ones have NO oil Holes in the Shell the later type DO have oil holes in them the later type are for the Six start oil pump if you get wrong you end up with oiling problem and a worn out crank shaft So be careful out there and do your research before you start early bike are worth all lot more has there is not many around now and good luck with it all

annajeannette said:

Well this is interesting bike I put it back to a Standard machine there very rare now the First Atlas was built on April 20th 1962 so this one not that far of being one of the first few too too built and has a Standard motorcycle you find you get more riding pleasure the best bar are the 5 inch rase bars witch some of these bikes had there had a Manxman 650 tank on the first few then went too 3./12 gallon tank your tank is a late type left hand filler cap tank made after 1964 you get tank badges from RGM Motors UK and All the Parts YOU need has Well there Good GUYs to know and Remember there are two oil pumps the 3 start early pump and the later 6 start oil pump its very important too get the right one and the right oiling set up , has the Shell bearings Are Different early ones have NO oil Holes in the Shell the later type DO have oil holes in them the later type are for the Six start oil pump if you get wrong you end up with oiling problem and a worn out crank shaft So be careful out there and do your research before you start early bike are worth all lot more has there is not many around now and good luck with it all

Click to expand...

What was the first Atlas serial number? You state first one built was April 20, '62. According to NOC records, my Atlas was dispatched May 21, '62 with serial number 102833. If we have the first serial number, we could then get monthly production. The OP's frame number is 1021xx. This suggests a production rate of about 350 per month, or more.

Slick

Do the factory records show the build date, or the dispatch date though ?

If Nortons had been stockpiling them before the announcement date,
we may only be seeing how quickly they could pack them up and bundle them out the door.

Its disappointing that someone hasn't had a good look at this stuff,
and recorded/published what was happening back then....