ARD Magneto for Commando
- Thread starter Dkt26
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page 6, $550 if they were available
http://www.classicycleworks.com/catalog/catalog.pdf
http://www.classicycleworks.com/catalog/catalog.pdf
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Dkt26 said:
I remember seeing a few go a while back for +$800 on Ebay. I purchased mine from a local speed shop maybe 10 years ago and paid around $350 for it. These are the small round compact ARD's that go on the end of the cam. There's no auto advance with these units as they are a fixed ignition timing system. They have a tendency of breaking the steel shaft that supports the ARD rotor.
Once the unit is broken there's no going back to the vendor for repair as he is out of business.
Paul, I have a broken one, slightly used with a timing pin and dual coil. I'll take $300.
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grandpaul said:
Broken rotor spindle repaired by Herb Becker and will likely not be a problem again. Other than that it is unfortunately not good.
Been battling an intermittent electrical gremblin that has been isolated to the stator component (not the black box or ignition coil). Repair will likely take depotting it, rewinding and repotting. Also needs a replacement needle bearing support which is a no brainer.
Probably should get a quote for repair. Anyone have suggestions for suitable service provider?
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I gave up using motorcycle magnetos many years ago after taking my bike and all my tools to several race meetings only to have the magneto fail - Lucas racing magnetos, BTH - just a waste of time and money. I ended up with a four cylinder Lucas SR industrial magneto, which was rotating magnet - very reliable, and the condensor is external. I now use a Boyer with a very small battery and a double ended Japanese coil, on my Commando. Simple - no bullshit, and guys making a profit from pretending to correct a magneto problem.
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Well I started vintage road racing with a Boyer and constant loss battery system which worked well and usually there were plenty of spares in the paddock on any race weekend. The big problem I had (as did others) is the cost of replacement batteries and the numerous instance where a battery failed thus loosing out on a race.
On a constant loss system on a British twin, the lead acid batteries get pretty well beaten up and do not last long. If I could rely on the magneto, that is the way I would go as it is generally lighter than a battery system and trouble free. Doug McRae runs his Commando with a magneto and it seems trouble free.
In my mind, the simpler you can make one of these bikes (especially road race) the better off you should be. I think a magneto is a step in the right direction. Unfortunately the ARD's for Nortons are no longer supported so what to do?
On a constant loss system on a British twin, the lead acid batteries get pretty well beaten up and do not last long. If I could rely on the magneto, that is the way I would go as it is generally lighter than a battery system and trouble free. Doug McRae runs his Commando with a magneto and it seems trouble free.
In my mind, the simpler you can make one of these bikes (especially road race) the better off you should be. I think a magneto is a step in the right direction. Unfortunately the ARD's for Nortons are no longer supported so what to do?
Holmeslice
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Dances with Shrapnel said:
Uhmmmmm, I distinctly remember loaning my spare Boyer and battery to Dougie and grafting it onto his bike in a frenzied moment more than once due to Magneto problems. He'd end up with my Boyer on his bike for the weekend, take it back home to Canada, ship it back to me, and the next time I'd see him I'd put it back on his bike, and the circle started all over again.
Pick your poison.
lcrken
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In the interest of being non-discriminatory towards all ignitions, I'll add that I've run almost all the older ignition types on my Norton roadracers, including stock points with Lucas coils and condenser, racing points conversions, Sebring crank triggered electronic system, several Boyers, Lucas Rita electronic, Joe Hunt mag, and ARD mags (both the old points style and the newer electronic units), and they have all failed at some point except the last design ARD. To be fair, the RITA failed because I installed it without the isolation mounts, so not really it's fault.
The stock points system broke the wire to the points.
The racing points plate, with ball bearing mounted points cam and Bendix points, wore out the Oldham coupling to the cam so rapidly that the bike lost all it's top end power by the end of the race.
The Sebring system lost the dowel pin in the alternator rotor that triggered the spark.
The Boyers just died, although the original one in my PR ate the Lucas coils first.
The Lucas Rita slowly died at Bonneville, but that was really my fault. However, I watched the Rita on a friend's race bike quit working. The problem turned out to be mild corrosion on the connectors for the trigger coil signal.
The Joe Hunt didn't quit working, but it wore the hex shaft that drives it so much that the timing was really erratic, and made it impossible to get a decent idle, and it hurt top end power noticeably.
The conventional ARD (Fairbanks-Morse style with points, mounted behind the timing cover) quit when the internal coil died.
The first generation of ARD electronic mag driven off the end of the cam had problems with the rotor coming loose on the shaft, where it was held by a friction fit on an expanding collet. Red Locktite and gorilla tightening worked pretty well, but it eventually did it again in a race.
The last generation ARD, also driven off the end of the cam, but with a lighter weight rotor and better rotor/shaft design, never failed, and I'm still using it. I did have another one of them fail after a crash ground it down to bits, but I can't blame that on the mag. I really should have built some sort of guard around it.
I guess my point is, they can all fail, so anecdotal stories of failures (like mine above
) don't mean much, unless there are a lot of them for one particular brand.
From what I've read on the forum, I'd expect the more modern designs, like the new Boyers, Trispark, etc. to be a bit more reliable, but none of them are foolproof.
Ken
The stock points system broke the wire to the points.
The racing points plate, with ball bearing mounted points cam and Bendix points, wore out the Oldham coupling to the cam so rapidly that the bike lost all it's top end power by the end of the race.
The Sebring system lost the dowel pin in the alternator rotor that triggered the spark.
The Boyers just died, although the original one in my PR ate the Lucas coils first.
The Lucas Rita slowly died at Bonneville, but that was really my fault. However, I watched the Rita on a friend's race bike quit working. The problem turned out to be mild corrosion on the connectors for the trigger coil signal.
The Joe Hunt didn't quit working, but it wore the hex shaft that drives it so much that the timing was really erratic, and made it impossible to get a decent idle, and it hurt top end power noticeably.
The conventional ARD (Fairbanks-Morse style with points, mounted behind the timing cover) quit when the internal coil died.
The first generation of ARD electronic mag driven off the end of the cam had problems with the rotor coming loose on the shaft, where it was held by a friction fit on an expanding collet. Red Locktite and gorilla tightening worked pretty well, but it eventually did it again in a race.
The last generation ARD, also driven off the end of the cam, but with a lighter weight rotor and better rotor/shaft design, never failed, and I'm still using it. I did have another one of them fail after a crash ground it down to bits, but I can't blame that on the mag. I really should have built some sort of guard around it.
I guess my point is, they can all fail, so anecdotal stories of failures (like mine above
) don't mean much, unless there are a lot of them for one particular brand.From what I've read on the forum, I'd expect the more modern designs, like the new Boyers, Trispark, etc. to be a bit more reliable, but none of them are foolproof.
Ken
Holmeslice
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DWS made a good point - if you ran (run) a Boyer, you could rest comfortably on the fact that someone in the paddock will have a spare black box/rotor/stator/coil/battery for that inevitable moment it craps out on you.
Fortunately I have no experience with crapping out, thanks. :wink:
Fortunately I have no experience with crapping out, thanks. :wink:
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I was at a National BOTT race in the mid 80s and doing well with world class riders on my 850 monoshock with boyer ignition. The boyer wires failed inside the points cover and it crapped out. This was my last National AMA race and it would have been nice to finish.
Its too bad they don't make the ARD small magneto anymore. So my favorite is the current Joe Hunt with rare earth magnets - very hot spark, easy starting and has never failed. Pre rare earth mags either Morris or Joe Hunt don't work as well. Lucas mags are junk in my opinion. Now there will be a new add on for the JS Joe Hunts that fit Commando and have fixed ignition - a retard lever for starting. I'm going to offer them very soon (as in a few days).
What I don't like about boyers is the screwy advance that never stops and the fact that it doesn't spark the first time around - the first time around just activates the ignition - makes for stomp hard kickstarting.
photo of retard lever for mag starting below:
If someone would reintroduce the small ARD, downsize the JOE Hunt, or come out with a reliable batteryless ignition from the two stroke dirt bike industry - I would be interested. Until then its the old "neato magneto".
Its too bad they don't make the ARD small magneto anymore. So my favorite is the current Joe Hunt with rare earth magnets - very hot spark, easy starting and has never failed. Pre rare earth mags either Morris or Joe Hunt don't work as well. Lucas mags are junk in my opinion. Now there will be a new add on for the JS Joe Hunts that fit Commando and have fixed ignition - a retard lever for starting. I'm going to offer them very soon (as in a few days).
What I don't like about boyers is the screwy advance that never stops and the fact that it doesn't spark the first time around - the first time around just activates the ignition - makes for stomp hard kickstarting.
photo of retard lever for mag starting below:
If someone would reintroduce the small ARD, downsize the JOE Hunt, or come out with a reliable batteryless ignition from the two stroke dirt bike industry - I would be interested. Until then its the old "neato magneto".
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